Theo Francis: Elevating conversations that matter

Babita Earle:

Hello and welcome everybody to Inside Insights. A podcast brought to you from Zappi, which is all about navigating change. Whether that's changing your personal or professional world and really looking at how our insight world is evolving. I have the pleasure of co-hosting this podcast with Ryan Barry. Ryan, do you want to say hello to our listeners?

Ryan Barry:

Hello everybody. Thank you for joining. Today, we have a really exciting interview with Theo Francis, who's the CEO of GuineaPig Fieldwork, as well as one of the founders of CORe. Babita, what brought you to want to interview Theo? I'm curious about how you guys got to know each other and what you're hoping to get out of the interview.

Babita:

Right. So, there are some very good reasons why I wanted to make sure that we had an interview with Theo. He's just launched his own business, GuineaPig Fieldwork, and we sort of go into that a little bit. And somebody who sets up a business within this time of uncertainty, I think is really, really brave. We see there are winners and losers at the moment within our industry, but more importantly, with the whole Black Lives Matter movement, the whole topic around diversity, inclusion, and equity within our industry is really, really important.

And Theo, along with a number of other individuals, have founded CORe, which is the Colour Of Research organization. Which is all about progressing the presence and the opportunity that people from ethnic minorities of color have within our industry. So, it's just bringing that to our listeners because I think it's really, really important for us to support and learn from them.

Ryan:

Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, it's a brave movement. I'm certainly learning a lot about this topic myself and how I can be a better kind of advocate in this movement. But, it's so important. So, I'm really excited to hear you guys talk.

Babita:

Thank you. So, let's go into the interview.

[Music transition to interview]

Babita Earle:

Okay, so hi listeners. Thank you for joining us today. Today, I have the great pleasure of welcoming my first guest to this podcast, Theo Francis. Let me tell you a bit about Theo, before we jump into our chat, that we've got planned. Theo is the founder and director of Guinea Pig Fieldwork. Now, I want to dig into that name, and the rationale behind that name. I'm sure there's an interesting story there. And he's also the co-founder and director at Colour of Research. Warmly known as CORe, with a small E in that. So thank you, Theo, for joining us today. It's a real pleasure. And I know you're extremely, extremely busy setting up a new company, as well as driving all the great stuff that you've got planned for CORe.

So, really this podcast is about driving how we're managing change, how we're navigating change. And we've seen so much recently. And I guess you've seen a lot of change in your circumstances, because you've just set up Guinea Pig, recently, and also just launched CORe. You do like to be punished, and set yourself some challenges. So I just want to start off by, if you could tell our listeners and me, a bit about you.

Theo Francis:

Yeah, sure. Well, no. First of all, thanks for having me, Babita. This is quite an honor. Tell you a little bit about myself. So I'm Theo, I'm 32 years young, I'm of mixed heritage, Jamaican and English. I grew up in Tottenham, although I support Arsenal. I dropped out of school, before taking GCSEs, so I never went to university. I sort of bounced around different sales jobs, along my journey, different marketing jobs, before falling into market research.

Babita:

Most people do, yeah.

Theo:

... Most people. I started off in a call center, at a company called Indiefield. It was supposed to be just a part-time gig, and I was doing other things at the time. So yeah, I started there, I did pretty well in the end…worked my way up the ranks, as they say, to the point where I am now. 

But my world has always been the operations side. And as you said, earlier this year, I started my own fieldwork company called Guinea Pig-

Babita:

Why Guinea Pig? Where did that name come from? 

Theo:

Well, look with Guinea Pig, I wanted a name that was understated. I didn't want to have something like Ultimate Fieldwork, or some sort of big name like that, because I wanted to be that friendly, easy approachable type of company. And obviously, there's the relation that guinea pigs have in research. And what I do is, I find people to take part in research, so it seemed like a clever little name. And I was a little bit worried that some people might find it an offensive term. I didn't a little bit of market research, and I found that-

Babita:

Sounds sensible.

Theo:

... You should always do market research. Well, I found that about 85% of people really liked it. They said it's easy to remember, it's cute, it's nice. 

Babita:

And how's it going? How long have you been established now?

Theo:

We've been established now, literally three months. It's gone a lot better than I expected. I booked my first project within three days. Within the first two weeks, I think we had ... was it three projects in two weeks, and then in the first month ... I've lost count now. I think we're on project 12 or 13, in three months, which is really, really good. 

Babita:

Well, that's great. And that's great, during lockdown, honestly. The rollercoaster that you must be on, it is hard at the moment. And you hear so many businesses struggling-

Theo:

It was a moment, when everyone was working from home, and I had to set up the shed in ... it was a little recording studio before. I set it up in an office. I had all of my stuff there, and I just thought, "This is something that I've wanted to do, for a long time."

I didn't expect that it was going to be as busy as it has been. It's been overwhelming, actually. And now, it's all about just trying to keep it going. We specialize in consumer B to B, hard to reach targets, UK, overseas. But the good thing is, when you're new, no one really has you pigeonholed yet, so it was just throwing everything at us, which is great.

Babita:

Yeah, no. And I wish you the best of luck in that. So we talked about hard to reach groups, and obviously, you told our listeners of your mixed heritage. And our paths crossed, due to my involvement with the MRS, and my passion about diversity, inclusivity, and equality within our industry. What was your impression of our industry, overall, from where you were sitting, in terms of how diverse ... I could probably give you that as well, but what was your impression?

Theo:

Well, as I said, I've always been on the operations side of the desk. And operations are far more diverse in terms of race, and in terms of social class, than it is on the other side of the desk, on the agency side.

So yeah, my own experience, it wasn't really as profound, you might say, as some of the other founders of CORe, who have always been on the agency side, and looked around and said, "Hey, I'm the only brown one in the room." I was the only brown one, but there are people who are a bit closer to me, in terms of social class as well. From an agency side, it's very much university grads, people from middle classed, white families. They basically rule the roost, and very few people of ethnic backgrounds, or from lower income families.

Babita:

Why did you think there was more diversity on the operations side of the industry, than on the-why do you think it happens in that way?

Theo:

Well, I think there's a lower barrier to entry. Pretty much anyone can work in a call center, then start there. With the agency side, you have to have a certain level of education. I feel like people recruit people, who look like themselves, or resemble themselves. So when it's built up as a culture, the majority of the people who work here are from this background, or this level of education, and when they're recruiting people from outside, they're really targeting people who resemble themselves. Whereas it's less of the case on the operations side. I won't say it's not a problem over there. It's just less of a problem.

Babita:

I was on the agency side, not the operations side, and I totally agree. For our listeners, I'm Asian, Indian background. I did go to university, and I did get a degree. And lucky for me ... this was just fortunate, I was sponsored by an organization called Windsor Fellowship, I think you've heard of them, Theo, that I had summer workshops, and sessions, where they helped me in interview practice, et cetera. Which I would never have got from my community, and I was one of the lucky ones, which then helped me get sponsorship in that launch pad. How do you see the industry today?

Theo:

Okay, in terms of the actual research that we're conducting, I think there's still a lot of work to be done. I think in terms of how we're representing societies in the UK. The ethnic perspective on a lot of things is just overlooked really. I think even when it is considered, I think it's more of a tick box exercise. It's just like, "Oh, we need a certain percentage, just to be ethnics," and that's it, just done. Rather than really breaking it down, and saying, "Okay, how can we gather the insights on specific ethnic grounds around this topic?" Because it's too much work. 

They're not then thinking about the future. What could happen if you opened that up, and you started to target different communities? You could expand that customer base. It's short-term thinking there, but then the knock on of that, is that because there is less of a demand, means these people of ethnic backgrounds ... there's less of a demand for them in the research. Some panel companies, and qual recruiters, really don't spend a lot of time trying to get ethnic minorities onto their books, because what's the point?

But then, when we are researching these people of ethnic backgrounds, sometimes it's really important stuff that we're trying ... It's not just about money or a product, it's about social issues. It becomes really difficult to actually find these people, because no one's getting them on their books. So what we end up with, is a sample of people who we don't really represent those communities well. It's more time-consuming, it's more costly. So it sort of perpetuates that idea that it's too much hassle. The juice is not worth the squeeze. And that's a vicious cycle. 

Babita:

Yeah, I think the point there is that ... There was a webinar that I went on. It was an MRS one. You need data, need the right learnings to have a meaningful conversation-

Theo:

So I think that's definitely a challenge that we'll be facing, in terms of how we're actually doing our research. In terms of the companies that we are building, I think it's still very much a white, middle class industry. We've touched on a few of the reasons, especially in the senior leadership. And these are something that CORe, Colour of Research is really trying to change. This is our whole MO, with our Fresh Faces initiative, it's about bringing people from ethnic backgrounds into the industry. With our Each One Teach One initiative, it's the mentorship program. It's free for everybody, it's to try and up skill people, and get them to where they want to be, that much faster. These are the things that we're really passionate about trying to change.

Babita:

So, you've mentioned CORe, and that was one of the main reasons I wanted you on our podcast. So let's move on to talking about CORe. CORe stands for Colour of Research. So amazing initiative, and something that is so ... actually we shouldn't call it initiative, we should call it a program, a movement, because it's more than an initiative. It's something that's really, really important, that we progress. So tell us, how did it start? 

Theo:

It was really organic. It happened quickly, but it was really organic. I personally came to the realization that something like CORe was needed, after attending a WIRe event, and seeing all of the work that they were doing for women, and thinking, "This is amazing." And not soon after that, Jane Frost, MRS, got on the stage and said, ``As MRS, the next community we really want to help elevate is the BAME community," and my ears pricked up automatically. I was like, "Okay, I am affected by this," so immediately I reached out to her, and I said, "What's going on? Can I help?" She was very positive. She said, "Really great that you want to get involved. Right now, we're trying to pull together leaders.

I then came across a LinkedIn group, a few months afterwards, created by Melissa Gonsalves, from Differentology, who's also one of the co-founders of CORe. So I reached out to her and said, "This is amazing. I'm going to invite everyone who I know, and I've got a pretty large network on LinkedIn." So I started adding everyone, who was from an ethnic background on all of my connections-

Babita:

How did you miss me? I never got an invite. I feel really left out.

Theo:

I don't know if we were connected yet-

Babita:

Oh, no.

Theo:

... I think you were still a secondary-

Babita:

Obviously not.

Theo:

... connection, at that point. But one of the people who I did invite was Bob Qureshi of i-view. So I went to the Quirks Conference, and he pulled me to the side, and he was like, "This thing was amazing. Why don't we create something more serious, because this is a real problem?" And we came to the idea that we're going to need a team, so we started pulling together leaders, people who we thought would be great. And what we found is that, everyone who we spoke to ... it was so weird, it's like they'd all been having similar conversations already. It was like they already were in the mindset, that something like this needed to happen. 

So yeah, we had our first brainstorm, via Zoom . It was in early March, just as the lockdown started as well, which was crazy. And it snowballed into what we are today. We're basically global already, we've got over 300 members around the world-

Babita:

Fantastic.

Theo:

... We only just launched three weeks ago. The appetite for this thing has been overwhelming. The key initiatives are the Each One Teach One mentorship program. I think that's the main one, and the Fresh Faces, as well, trying to bring people in. And there's so many other things that we're doing, as well.

Babita:

I saw your launch party content, and it looked fabulous. So there are a lot of things that you're trying to do, or want to do, and it must be quite daunting. And I think we've discussed this already. I loved your analogy around, "It's great taking the plane off, but the hard bit is landing it." And that's what you're doing now. Now that you've done the launch, and you've had that initial uproar and engagement. Where is your head at, with it? What does success look like for you?

Theo:

Yeah, there's a lot going on. Lots of moving parts. We've taken on a problem that is huge. It's a long-term problem, it's multifaceted, and it's so important for so many people as well. There's a lot of people expecting big things from this, so in terms of what I'm worried about landing, I'm worried about landing everything. As much as I'm happy with the amount of interest, and the support that we're receiving, with the speed that things are going at, I do worry sometimes that, "What if this thing gets out of control? What if we can't actually manage it all?" But when I look around, the amazing people we have on the CORe team alone, and the amazing people who are stepping up, they're putting their hands out and saying, "I'm here to help. I'm volunteering. What can I do to lessen the load?" That eases the worry a bit, but-

Babita:

Good.

Theo:

... Yeah, I'm always worried. I think you have to be. You have to be, if you're going to do any sort of change, then you can't just sit around, thinking that everything is going to work out. 

Babita:

I think just elevating the conversation, and lifting the lid on this topic, as a first step, is a big win, I think. And saying to people, "It's okay to have this conversation.” 

Theo:

I think the main thing ... there's big changes to make. Because a lot of people are coming to us and saying, "Well, what do we do? How can we solve the recruitment issue? How can we bring more people in?" But I think the main thing is just a mindset shift. And it's something, it needs to happen where the topic of race is no longer taboo, because I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed people hesitate before saying the word black, like it's an offensive term. It's not offensive. Everyone is really scared to say the wrong thing, and if we can't even have the conversation, how are we going to find solutions?

Babita:

Just very sadly, the timing of all of this was around the Black Lives Matter Movement, which has raised ... should I say, corporate consciousness around this whole topic, which is a good thing. But I think the challenge for you, as an organization is, how do you continue that momentum? How do you continue pushing organizations? Because everybody is like, "Yes, we need to do something," and there's been some great pledges, but it's keeping that going. I see that as a real challenge. 

Theo:

Okay, so I think the response that we've seen, across different industries, to the murder of George Floyd, I think that is a silver lining. It was a tragedy, but there is a silver lining, in that it's the first time that corporations have finally, publicly announced what side of the fence they stand on. And what that does, is it gives us a reference point for the next time, when we do want to approach them, we can say, "Hey, remember when you posted that black square, and you made that statement? How serious are you about this?"

So the buzz around it ... if you can call it that, is dropping off. But Colour of Research was never meant to be a response to the death of George Floyd.

Black Lives Matter is an amazing initiative, and it's been around for a decade now. And they'll keep on doing great work. Had this tragedy not happened, we'd have still been standing on the roof tops, screaming this message out, and we're going to keep on doing that. Again, I think we will do the best that we can, to keep marketing it, keep pushing it up there, keep having the conversation.

Babita:

So talk about some of the specific things that you're driving. Maybe one or two of the most important things. 

Theo:

Well, the mentoring scheme is ... it's called Each One Teach One, because it's about shared experience. It's about partnering people up, with people who are further along the line, who will also be able to relate to them, on the topic of race, and how that's affected them. It's not to exclude people, or to say that, "Okay, if you're white, you've got no value to give to someone who's not white." Of course you do, but we have a different area for that. We've got a master classes segment, we're basically-

Babita:

Great.

Theo:

... asking for people who have specialist skills, to be able to contribute to the up-skilling of these people. Because mentoring is about the shared experience, the up-skilling, is something else. 

The Fresh Faces initiative is all about trying to bring in more colorful faces into the industry. So that includes, talking at universities, and trying to ... The research industry is not the sexiest industry. People often don't go to uni and say, "Oh, what I really want to do is market research."

Babita:

I did. I was one that actually said, "I want to go into market research." It's very odd, but yeah.

Theo:

It's very, very, very rare. You're like a unicorn. Market research was not even on my radar. I didn't even know it existed, until I fell into it.

We do some really cool stuff. So it's about reaching out to the younger generation, making them more interested in joining us, in market research.

It's foolish, I think, to ignore the fact that the majority of the neighborhoods, that ethnically diverse kids grow up in, are not the best neighborhoods. A lot of them are the neighborhoods, where the schools are underfunded, where the crime rate is higher, where they face different challenges. So they might not be the ones who end up going to the top universities. And that doesn't mean that they don't, potentially have a really bright, and exciting career in market research. They might be the fresh faces, to come and change this whole industry.

That sort of wraps up the Fresh Faces. We've also got the Spotlight Initiative, which is all about highlighting the excellence that we have already. So we've got our own podcast, basically highlighting some success stories. People in the research industry, who have made it big, and give a bit of inspiration to the younger generation. We've got, what we're setting up at the moment, we're calling the Speaker's Shortlist. This is one of the things, at the request of the MRS. They're really struggling to find ethnic speakers of good caliber, to talk at events. 

And there's a Diversity Directory. It's like this thing keeps on growing and growing, because people are coming to us. One of the things that people were coming to us, and asking us, "Okay in terms of resourcing, we want to work with inclusive suppliers. But where are they? How do we reach out to them? Now, where do we find ethnic freelancers? Where do we find field agencies, who are owned by ethnic ... Or, research agencies?" I could really go on for a long time. 

Babita:

I remember you talking about the city pledge, and that's something quite unique. Can you just tell us a bit about that?

Theo:

Of course. So basically, we are speaking with MRS, about getting this included into the CEO pledge. It's a bit of a no-brainer. It's so simple that I'm surprised it's not the norm already. The way that we measure ethnic diversity in the UK, how diverse a company is, is all based on the national representative, so nat rep. In the UK, it's 13%, so if your research has got 13%, you're good.

But the majority of the research agencies, and the large companies, they're in cities, like London, like Manchester, where the ethnic make-up is far higher than that. In London, it's 41 points. So what we really want is to see research, and that benchmark for ethnic diversity, to be at the rate of the city. And that's what the city rep pledge is all about, because that's realistic. If you're going to make a company as diverse as the city it's in, as what you're seeing outside, that's more reflective than just the country, as a whole. Because I'm sure people are not traveling from Scotland, to come into your offices in London every day, so why is that included in your make-up.

So that's something that in the next 18 months we'll be looking to have, pretty much all of the industry companies put their stamp on, that they will aim for this. It's a big, big ask. 

I think city rep is about putting the benchmark in the place where it actually is supposed to be. And it works both ways as well, in terms of research. Another big problem and pet peeve, especially in the qual space, is like let's say you're doing research in Inverness or something, some really small majority, white town. A lot of the time they've got ... "Oh, yeah. But you need to have at least two BAME, out of an eight person group," and they're rushing around, looking for the one black person in the village. It doesn't make any sense. It's just like this one size fits all approach. This is the thing that we need to steer away from, this sort of mindset.

Babita:

So just final thoughts, for me and the listeners, is if you're a listener, what would you say are the two or three things that an individual does, doesn't matter which background you're from, what level you're at, to help start changing things? Because Inside Insights is about change, and we need to see change. What is it they can do, to help progress, and make our industry a much more diverse and inclusive environment?

Theo:

I think number one is, educate yourself. A lot of people, they'll get excited about what's happening in the world right now, and want to speak out, and say, "Yeah, this and that and ... " but if you don't actually know the problem, then how do you know that the effort that you're putting in, is not going to be more of a detriment than a help? So educate yourself, and look for organizations where you can support, in terms of race, organizations like CORe. In terms of sexuality, you've got organizations like MRS Pride. In terms of gender, you've got organizations like WIRe. These are all organizations that are trying their best to create change, and they need all the support that they can get. So if you want to be part of the change, then I'd say, first do your research, and second, just get involved. Actively join these conversations and ask, "What do you need from me? What can I do?" And lend that support.

Babita:

I think education is key. And one of the key things that came out of the Black Lives Matter Movement is, people of white background understanding racism, and the term white privilege coming out. And I think it's made people a lot more open to having these discussions, and I think we should. 

Theo:

And a large group of small fish can scare away a big shark. So it's all about just uniting as many people as we can. Even if you're small, it doesn't mean you're insignificant.

Babita:

Yeah, very, very good point. And this is where CORe came from.

Theo:

Exactly.

Babita:

Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you, Theo. 

Theo:

Thank you, Babita.

Babita:

That was a wonderful conversation. And I guess if our listeners want to find out more about CORe, get involved, just go to your website, or get in touch with you. There's lots on there.

Theo:

Yeah, go to Colourofresearch.org, sign up as a member, that's the first thing. It's free. It keeps you in the loop with everything that we're doing, so please go ahead and do that right away. There's a number of different ways that people can get involved, as I mentioned already. You could be a mentor, help guide this next generation. You could be a mentee and let the people who have been there help you. You can be a sponsor, you could be an advocate, a volunteer. There's so many different routes to support. This is a very big, big problem that we're tackling, so we need as many hands on deck as we can get. So yes, if you do have interest in it, please do reach out. 

Babita:

Fantastic. Thank you for your time.

Theo:

Thank you, Babita.

Babita:

I look forward to seeing all the impact, and I will be supporting you, and working with you.

Theo:

Excellent.

Babita:

I'm really looking forward to working together. Thanks, Theo.

Theo:

Thanks very much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Babita:

Ryan, what did you think of that? What resonated with you within that interview?

Ryan:

I really enjoyed listening to Theo talk. I wish I could get on a plane and be in London, because he'd be a fun person to go have a few beers with and just kind of talk about life and culture and sport and everything else that he was interested in.

The thing that really struck me, that I didn't know before this interview, was that CORe was not born out of the Black Lives Matter movement. The fact that this was something that they recognized the need to do months before this happened. Before we were in COVID and it was just a function of really thinking through the project.

And I guess it gives me some hope for the world because it's like, you know what? It didn't take horrific events that happened in the United States for these folks to realize there was an opportunity to do something to advance the diversity cause. So yeah, that was the thing that really struck me Babita. I'm sure his sports fandom is an interesting dynamic in his circle of friends. Inner London football rivalries are pretty, pretty intense too.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan: But, the diversity initiative being something pre-COVID is just fascinating to me.

Babita:

Yeah. And actually, I've been having many conversations with people about how you build relationships in this new normal that we're in and approaching building relationships and how it's so much more difficult. But then, do you know what really gets my goat? And I don't know if you have that term over in the U.S. right now, and this sort of takes us into our next segment, which is understanding misunderstandings. And for me, I don't know. I'd like to unpack the new normal with you a little bit more because it's something that I am really fed up with hearing that every time. Back in April. Yeah, fine. Like what's the new normal? But now I hear it, I sort of want to sort of curl my toes and it means different things to different people. What's your take on the new normal? How does it make you feel?

Ryan:

You know what? I'm so sick of it, like you said. I get probably 20 emails from people trying to sell me stuff every day and it's always like, "I hope you're doing well in this uncertain time," and this "In the new normal." And then they sort of throw in their value prop. And I think the truth is it is a misunderstanding because we don't know what's to come, right? We don't know what's going to happen with this virus. We don't know what the recession's going to look like. We actually just don't know.

So, for me to say that is almost ignorant to the fact of that reality. That we actually don't know what a new normal is and the truth is everybody's in different places. So, for me personally, we as a business have performed relatively well through this time. I've gone from traveling on an airplane, being away from my kids every single day to working in a zoom environment. And fortunately, so far, I've not had anybody get sick.

So, for me, it means something different to somebody who might be living in an apartment struggling to be productive and work on their couch but also to somebody who lost a loved one or lost their job or is struggling to put food on the table. And so, I find it to be almost an irresponsible thing to say because it lacks empathy for what people might be going through. So yeah, I wish people would stop saying it. But, I do think it's a statement that you make without understanding what someone's actual reality is, you know?

Babita:

Yeah. It's almost like we have to normalize ourselves now to a great amount of uncertainty. And I know you're a type A individual just like I am and not..

Ryan:

Yes ma'am.

Babita:

..in that uncertainty is really challenging and we don't know how we're going to be coming out of all of this as personally, as organizations and being agile. Now, that's another word that I think we need to unpack in future podcasts-

Ryan:

Let's do that.

Babita:

It's really, really important. So, I guess our message is if you are using words or going to go with the term "new normal", really think about the context of that individual that you're talking to. And maybe it's about time we stopped using the new normal and say, this is the world. Normalizing yourselves in the environment that we're in. 

Ryan:

Or maybe take it as an opportunity. Take it as an opportunity to understand what someone's reality is. One of the ways to get over misunderstanding each other is to talk to each other and understand where the different viewpoints are coming from. Right? So, instead of asserting like you know what someone's new normal is, maybe just ask them how they're dealing with it.

I mean, one of the things we've been doing at work is, one of our programmers built this app called KetchUp. It randomly pairs people, right? So we launched this four weeks ago, I've riffed with four people who I otherwise would not speak to about nothing about work. Right? And I've seen four different setups, four different realities, four different mental health states, anxiety states, comfort levels. Everybody is different. So, I think it's an opportunity for us to double click on empathy which brings you back to some of the key themes that you and Theo were discussing.

Babita:

Yeah. Yeah. It's about understanding each other as humans because of that, it's so much more important today than it has ever, ever been. And being at Zappi, it's one of the things that we really value. 

So, thank you everybody for listening. We're always looking for cool ideas and if you want to participate in our podcast and you've got a really great message to give out there, email us insideinsights@zappistore.com. Thank you once again and look forward to you joining our next podcast which will be in the next couple of weeks.

Ryan:

Thanks everyone.