Michael Brereton: Shaping insights professionals of the future

Babita Earle:

Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast Inside Insights. It's our podcast, all about navigating change as bringing to you inspirational guests and inspirational stories. And as always, I have my partner in crime, Ryan Barry. Hi, Ryan.

Ryan Barry:

Babita, hello. Good to talk to you.

Babita:

How are you, Ryan?

Ryan:

I'm bored. I'm stuck in a house with a potentially coronavirus quarantine and it's gloomy, but all things on balance, I'm doing great. It's good to see you today. But the cabin fever of nine months of sitting in Boston is starting to catch up to this guy.

Babita:

It's been really tough. Monday mornings are particularly hard when you know you're stuck in that room, in front of that computer, every day. And it's just... Do you know, this morning, Ryan, I got up and I went back to bed because I couldn't face it.

Ryan:

I think you work smart. I mean, the only thing is, we're recording this now, the week of Thanksgiving, so I actually have a break lined up here this week, which I'm very much looking forward to. Will be one of the most ridiculous Thanksgivings of all time for me. I mean, normally we have 30 people we eat with and it's going to be us five, and we're going to make the most of it. We're going to have some fun with the kids.

Babita:

And make sure you take some time off, because I think, it's more important now than ever that you do take a break. I mean, I think so many people are hitting the ball, so...

Ryan:

Totally agree.

Babita:

So, this week we have an interview that you've done with Michael Brereton, is that, have I gotten the pronunciation right?

Ryan:

I think you came close enough. Michael Brereton is the executive in residence at Michigan State University. Many of you might know Michael because he was the CEO at Maritz Research for a very long time. I met Michael through the market research conference circuit, actually, and have struck up a friendship with him over the course of the last several years. He's been gracious enough to invite me multiple times to speak to students, which is scary, at Michigan State, where, in my opinion, there's one of the best masters in market research programs on the market.

And Michael does a really good job of grounding the fundamentals people need to know, with where the market's actually going, unlike a lot of other programs. So, I'm excited to talk to him about it. I haven't seen Michael, Michael's another friend of mine who I see in person, normally we meet at this really fun bar in East Lansing and we have a cheeseburger and a beer, and we talk business. So, we got to do it on the podcast. Usually I have a Michigan based IPA, he has a Boston based IPA. And so, we're loose, but it's the morning, we'll see how it goes. Should we get into it and talk to my friend, Michael?

Babita:

Yes, let's go.

[Music transition to interview]

Ryan Barry:

Michael, thanks for joining me.

Michael Brereton:

It's great to be here. I really appreciate being invited to be part of this. 

Ryan:

Absolutely, absolutely. A big part of why we wanted to do this series was to shine a light on the various aspects surrounding change in the world as we aspire to get closer to our customers, as we prep the next generation for the jobs that they need to be doing, and as we evolve our organizations. So Michael brings such a great experience and perspective to this conversation, having been an executive who grew an industry, also saw an industry get disrupted, and then is also leading the charge in academia.

So, Michael, take me through a little bit of your journey from being a global CEO of a multinational to getting into academia. I think it's a fascinating story.

Michael:

Yeah. I feel so fortunate to have gone down that road, because I was able to retire early. I had planned to retire early for a long time. So I'm 60 now. I retired five years ago. But I wasn't quite ready to work on my golf swing all day and I wanted to stay engaged. 

I wanted to stay engaged, but I didn't want to work at the pace. I didn't want to run another company. I didn't want to wake up every morning feeling like that. And I was CEO for 11 years, and that was more than enough. So I started looking for a different way, or I was thinking ahead of time different ways to stay engaged. And so I planted a lot of seeds.

And by the way, that's one thing I would throw out to your younger audience, is even if you're in your 30s, it may sound kind of wacky to say, but it's never too early to start having those thoughts and those conversations, and thinking about down the road. And so I was very fortunate, I was doing that. But one of the areas was in the world of higher education. And when I was running Maritz, I was very involved with a lot of industry associations.

But one thing I saw and I got very passionate about is I felt that we in this industry did not have a lot of good sources at the graduate level to hire people. And not just researchers, or insights, or analysts, but also strong at that and the ability to be a leader in the organization. And it was frustrating. And so we just had this kind of personal mission where we said, "We're going to find universities, big universities who will start Master's in market research programs with a big internship component to them. 

And I was knocking on doors, and I would say, "If you at your university, if you agree to put together a Master's in market research program, I'll put a coalition of client-side folks and agency-side folks together.

One of the schools I knocked on the door was Michigan State. And I live in Michigan, as well. And so then when I announced my retirement, because I had been involved in that program, and helping them start the program, and put a board together for that program, it's kind of a natural segue in. And they said, "Hey, would you consider that?" And so it's not as if I grew up saying, "Oh, I want to be a professor, some day."

But I just found that this is a really cool way, and pretty much a chill way of staying engaged in the industry, being part of, or at least understanding and being able to talk to all the transformation and disruption that's occurring, of having a reason to be at the conferences and having conversations like this today with you. And at the same time, to feel like you're helping to create the next generation of leaders. And, I mean, what's better than that?

Ryan:

I would argue not much. There's so much important progress we have to make in the world, and it is the next generation of leaders who's going to make it possible. So I think the story is fantastic. I just love the deliberate connections and experimentation that you did. I mean, we've talked about this over beers together, like I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up, even though I have the coolest job ever, I think.

But is it academia, is it boards? And so, like you, it's doing a little bit of experimentation with both, on the side. And I think people need to feel free and not bound by their current jobs to do a little bit on the side and to do those explorations. 

So I won't pepper you too much about your former CEO days. But I wouldn't mind hearing from you, what do you think the biggest change is in terms of pace from academia to CEO? What are some of the skills that are transferable, and then some of the things that you're just like, "You know what? I'm glad I'm not doing this anymore?" I imagine that there's pros and cons to it.

Michael:

Yeah. It's an extremely different world going from one to the other. And I think what I take with me is the knowledge I picked up, the expertise I picked up. Not so much the ability to run things and the management side. So all the experience, the connections, the way to look at the business, the way to understand the transformation of the business.

But if I had to go into a management role on the academic side, I would crash and burn. Because if I tried to act like the manager I was in a for-profit ... Maritz was a mid to large, privately held, full-service global firm. And to step into now a humongous university environment with a totally different accountability structure, totally different, really, priorities ... The university is there for a different reason than businesses. And I found myself in the beginning going, "Oh, my gosh. Oh, my god, I need to change that. I need to change ... " because it's a totally different vibe and, again, accountability structure.

And I had to say, "You know what? You know what, pal, you retired. You're just an employee now. So for people who are thinking about following the same track, I'd say make sure you're able to kind of let that part go. Otherwise, you're going to pull all the hair out of your head, because it's a very different environment. And you're not here to save that environment. You're kind of an outsider coming in. You're here to bring the expertise, bring the knowledge, bring the experience. So, big, big difference.

Ryan:

It is interesting. I've had some other friends, different paths where they've gone from high-profile executive jobs to ... I'm thinking of somebody specifically who went from big executive to now he's a quota carrier. And he's in his 60s, and he loves it. It's like, "Oh, wait, all these problems aren't my problems. I can do my thing." And it's almost the other side of it. Because when you're leading an organization, all the fun stuff falls on your desk and all the not fun stuff falls on your desk. And the buck stops with you, right? So yeah, I mean, it must have taken you a while to sort of just say, "Okay, I've got a different remit now."

Michael:

In the very beginning, I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not going to last. This is not going to work." But I had to say, "No, that's not why you're here." And as soon as I got my head around that, it's been cool.

Ryan:

I know this because one of my coworkers has been through the program. You've evolved beautifully. And I've had the pleasure of guest lecturing in some of your classes. So I wouldn't have known you used to be a bigshot CEO. You've got the professor down pat, man. So let's talk a little bit about the program and the types of students you're seeing.

I think one thing we both ... We've talked about this together, and we'll bring it up here for the benefit of everybody who is listening, but setting the next generation of leaders up for success is so critical. It's something I'm passionate about. I know, obviously, it's something you're passionate about. So talk to me a little bit about the types of students and profiles you're A., seeing in the program, but also that you want to be attracting into get a Master's education in a specific field like market research.

Michael:

Yeah. That's really interesting, because even in the five years I've been involved and a couple of years before that in putting it together, seeing a change and a real expansion in the type of people who are being attracted to this and who are succeeding in that. And I think that's a big statement for the line of business that we're in, and probably for a lot of the people who are listening to this, right now, because I think that the profile of the individual, I guess, as you said, is broadening. 

And I am involved in the admissions, so I'm kind of reading what they're writing on their application in terms of why they want to come into this program. And our program has just more than tripled in size in the last five years. And the people are seeing our industry as a cool place to come to. Whereas back in the day, it was a nerdy place to come to. 

There's obviously just the ubiquitousness of data, and the ability, and the tools, and the power to do things with data. And people are really saying, "I can make a difference in the business. I can make a difference in broader society by helping to make fact-based decisions, and this is within my ability. 

It's not like in the old days where it was kind of like research for research's sake. No, this is a role to use market information, customer information to make big decisions, to help make big decisions, to mitigate risks in the decision-making process.

And so one of the things that we've seen, particularly online … older students, and there are so many there, Ryan, who are career changers. It just blows me away. And more than half the students. Because I thought, "Okay, we put this program together for people who want to advance their marketing research career." But there are also folks who come from totally different fields.

And there's something about this industry that they're a part of, all of a sudden it's kind of a cool, valuable, and marketable thing to have. And they're saying, "I want to do that. I want to layer that on top of my medical background, or my legal background, my military background." And the idea of people coming here to career change into insights and analytics space, it's just mind-blowing, really.

Ryan:

Well, it's encouraging. I mean, how many times do you have the joke with somebody, "How did you get into market research?" And everybody tells you the "How they stumbled into market research" story. The fact that you're seeing an intentional pull is genuinely exciting. I mean, I remember ... maybe a New York Times article, a couple years ago, reading about ... how the big companies were losing top talent. They worked at the Pepsis of the world. They weren't perceived as sexy. And I think that there's been a big drive to change that. Like, "You don't have to work at Apple to be cool," sort of was the tone that they were trying to stress.

And so, to me, it's exciting that there's that pull coming in, because I don't think we've had people dying to be in research. I mean, when I went to university, we had a qual class and a quant class. I mean, they were basic intros to market research. And in order to get a business degree, you had to go through them. That was it. So it's a testament to you and the other programs, I mean for at least creating this opportunity. But, as an industry, we've got to keep elevating that, because the days of questioning if insights are valuable, I think, have passed.

Michael:

It is. It's really rewarding to watch.

Ryan:

You're taking some of your curriculum seriously. I know more under-the-hood, so I'll let you tell it. But what are some of the things you're trying to do with the curriculum to get the students, whether they're early in their career or they're evolving, ready for where the market's going versus where it was? Because there is a balance, right, of the technical skills and the future skills?

Michael:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

I guess something about the kind of future-proofing that you're thinking about.

Michael:

Well, to me, and you're hitting on what I think is the most exciting area, and certainly why I'm choosing to do this and very passionate about that. Because when we go back to talking about creating the next generation, I come in with a bias that this next generation has to really be able to differentiate themselves from a leadership position. And to your point, is that, I believe, and we believe in this program, it requires having those fundamentals that you talked about.

And sure enough, those fundamentals are not a heck of a lot different than what you were taught in school, what I was taught in school, way back when. And we're still teaching those. But I think the concern is that some programs stop at those. And yeah, they may not have changed a heck of a lot in 50 years, but they're time-tested. They're still used. They're still important to the foundations of our discipline. But then the differentiation really comes in terms of saying, "Okay, now on top of that, what are the additional skills to really position someone as a leader today?"

And I think they're really in two areas. One is application, and the other is really understanding all the disruption and transformation that's going on. So, to me, the application part is probably easier for everybody to understand. That's just really taking a "So what, a so what, a so what" kind of focus in everything you teach. I spend half of my time talking with folks like you, luring you into the classroom, trying to get as many guest lecturers as possible in there that are talking about, "Okay, that's fine. You've learned these fundamentals. It's very important. Now, here's how you apply them. Here's how you use them.”

And understand it's not research for the sake of research. It's all about using this to help make a better decision, to help your client make a better decision, to help mitigate risk in the company in terms of the decision-making process. Don't teach anything without showing how it's applied in terms of making a better business decision.

But then the other thing is where I'm having the most fun. And that's really saying, "Yes, and ... " The fact is, if you're a young person with a marketing research education background, yeah, you've got all these fundamental tools and you understand how to apply them. But the reality is, when you walk into the job tomorrow, the chances of you using a lot of those things that we've all been taught for 50 years are minimal. You're walking into a very different environment now. The chances of you doing random digit dialing or true probability sampling, or whatever is very, very rare.

The fact is you're walking into a world of roughly right. You're walking into a world of speed over accuracy. You're walking into a world of DIY tools, companies that have not traditionally been in this field. That's the world you're walking into. Very disruptive, very transformative space. 

And my goal is that any graduate  will come out being a solid researcher and being comfortable articulating a point of view how our space is morphing, how our space is being disrupted, and have a point of view that they can walk into their employer, whether it's client-side or supplier-side, and say, "Here's how we can leverage those transformations. I've got an idea. And oh, by the way, I can see how I have a role personally in this, moving forward."

And so, to me, that's the real excitement in all of this, because A., our space for the last, what, five, seven, 10 years, it's just been going into this massive disruption. Companies like yours are coming in and just shaking the space up, turning traditional business models upside down. And a lot of companies are running around with their hair on fire, saying, "Oh, my god, this is a threat. This is an existential problem for me." Are you going to view it as that way, or are you going to view it as, "Well, no, this is an opportunity if I understand this, if I embrace this, if I come together with others in this, if I really apply this."

You need everybody in your organization to be on that. You can be bringing new people in. And so I would love so much for the brand of the program that we have to be kind of differentiated that way. Yeah, everybody comes out with the solid fundamentals, and they're comfortable articulating a point of view in terms of the disruption, the transformation that's occurring, and they're ready to embrace it.

And the future leaders need to know that because there just seems to be such an opportunity forming. Because what we were talking about before, is with just the ubiquity of data, and the tools, and everybody in organizations are saying, "Well, we should be able to make faster, cheaper, better decisions now because we've got all this data and we've got the tools to do something with it." And, of course, there's all these tools flying in, that some of them are pretty questionable. But they're shiny, and you're seeing a new one every day.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah.

Michael:

And then you've got, on the other end of the continuum, you've got the traditional folks who have been around forever saying, "No, no, no, accuracy, precision, accuracy, precision. We can't use any of that." The reality is we need people who can bridge those two worlds and understand them both. And the flip side of that is, if you're one of those people that can bridge those worlds, you're gold and you're leadership material, at least in my view it is.

Ryan:

I think a balance of technical competence and then embedding the intuition of where the world is going is giving people those superpowers. And what I loved about what you said is you are also giving leaders their voice. Because I think people often suffer from impostor syndrome, and they don't want to say what they think. But I've been in your classroom. You're putting people on the spot, asking them what they think, giving them their voice.

All right, so last question for you, and you've touched on it a little bit with your "Faster, cheaper, better." But you see a lot, you hear a lot. You go to the conferences with more objective eyes than most. I like to think I'm objective, but you know I drink the Zappi Kool-Aid. What are the big things you think are going to happen here in the next couple years? This industry is changing like crazy. It's not like the 2000s where we talked about change. It's moving. So get your crystal ball out for me, Michael. What are some big trends, big predictions that you have for the insights space in the next couple years?

Michael:

Well, I think there's going to be even more consolidation. I think there's going to be probably a greater shakeout than we have seen, say, in the last five years, if we look forward to the next five years. And I think it's really going to come down to, if you're running a company or if you're running a big part of a company, how you view the space that you are in. And if you say, "I see an opportunity, due to the fact that there are so many new players, because the sandbox that you're in is now that much bigger."

And I think that then you will see opportunities to come together to combine, to evolve your own business. 

On the flip side, the companies that say, "No, this is what we do, and this is how it's always been applied," I think the squeeze is going to get worse, and worse, and worse, because of the number of new players coming into our space that really can't spell research. They just are coming at this from a totally different area. It's just proliferating. 

And so there's just this natural opportunity to come together, and to see that as an opportunity to come together, and partner, and be part of something, as opposed to digging the heels in and saying, "No, this is what I do. 

And so I really see a line forming. I mean, so I think there's going to be very much a kind of haves and have nots in the space. And again, this is all kind of coming back to the conversation that we've been having, is, "Let's create the next generation who can really lead in that space, and then flourish."

Ryan:

That is sage advice. We cannot sit in our walled garden and expect our turf to remain untouched. We have to let the world in and connect. I hope everybody heard you, because there are a lot of predictions out there that are full of shit. That's not one of them. Just follow the money. Just follow where corporations are going, and follow where Deloitte and McKinsey are consulting the C-suite in the big enterprises. I mean, the days of us sitting on the ninth floor being geeks, they ended a long time ago. But that's good news, based on what you said about the future generation earlier, right? We're getting it from talent. And that talent is not going to care if this is the way we've always done it.

Michael:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

They're not going to be crippled by it.

Michael:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

To those on the side of this that are like, "This too shall pass," I hope you listen to Michael, because if you do, it can help you grow, no matter where you are in your career. Michael, you're a gem. I'm so privileged to know you, man. And everybody who is going to have the benefit of listening to this is going to be better off for it. Let's get a little plug for Michigan State. If somebody who's listening employs people who need to learn more about research, if you're somebody who's looking at a career change and wants to get into an extremely exciting industry, how do they get a little bit more information about Michigan State's program?

Michael:

Go straight to the website. And if they don't get enough information just in terms of what they read, there's a phone number there for me, there's a phone number there for multiple people. And we're crawling all over ourselves to give you more information and bring you onboard.

Ryan:

Yeah, you won't have a response rate issue with the Michigan State crew.

Michael:

No, no, no.

Ryan:

Michael, thank you, my friend. I really appreciate it.

Michael:

It's been great being part of this. I really look forward to ... and all the different podcasts you're having. I think the theme that you're following here is really cool.

Ryan:

Awesome. Thanks for being a part of it.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Ryan Barry:

That was fun. I'm really glad I got to catch up with Michael and do that interview about such an important topic in education and our industry, but really, broadly there's not many things that I feel solved downstream challenges more than optimizing education. What'd you think of the interview?

Babita Earle:

I thought it was great. And it was actually a very different angle looking at our industry. And there were a few things, I think it was great that he had this pivot in his career from being a CEO to being a professor and he's still developing and learning, and he's 60. So, that's good. And it has hope for us all, so that was really encouraging and to learn about. But he was just talking about such an important topic, which I'm sort of looking at myself right now, is the future talent of our industry because the majority of people fell into market research, it's not an industry that you choose. But what he's doing is, he's investing, through the work that he's doing, in building a better narrative around our industry, investing in what the future talent needs to look like.

And he's right. There's going to be a huge amount of consolidation within our industry. And it's not about precision. I mean, how many times, I think he said, we don't do random probability sampling anymore... And it's how we can be partners to our clients and help them answer business questions in a smart way and connecting that narrative to future talent is really attractive and the kinds of skills that they need. So, I thought it was a great interview, very relevant and very important for us, so that people don't fall into market research in the future.

Ryan:

Yeah. I'd love a world where people are more intentional about a craft that allows you to study culture and people, and marketing science for a living. I mean, I think the industry has long had a branding problem. And by the way, optimizing what we're doing downstream and education, doesn't only help the insights industry. It helps our massive systemic racism problems, the problems where there's not enough diversity. 

I mean, you and I know this, we're at the moment recruiting for 31 roles in our company. Good luck finding diverse salespeople that understand consumer insights today, with 10 years experience, good luck finding software engineers of a diverse background who have an advanced degree in mathematics. And that is not an excuse. We're going to go and we've partnered with a bunch of industry outlets and Babita, and our head of people, Tom, does an amazing job of keeping us honest, but seriously, good luck.

And I view the solution to this problem as way downstream. So, the more we can do an education to tell people, yes, you can and here's how, the more we don't sit there and go, "Oh my gosh, we need a 20% quota in interviews." It's going to slow us down by four months because that's the current status. And so, it's an industry thing and it's a culture thing for me. And that's why I'm so passionate about education, and anytime the Michigan State people call for me to go do a talk on the industry, I'm on the first flight out there.

Babita:

I mean, it makes me think about that last segment of our podcast that we always do, understanding misunderstandings. And I still think, my parents don't understand what I do, they totally misunderstand what I do. And it's that dinner party conversation around what's your career, what do you do for your job. And you avoid saying you're doing research. You say, "Oh, I work for this company or I'm in technology." So, Ryan, tell me, do your family and your parents understand what you do and what is that understanding, and how you describe what you do?

Ryan:

So, my parents probably learned the wrong things about what I do from our podcasts, because they both listen to and they're very proud of the conversation we had with Diane Hessan. So, I would not be surprised, if you asked one of my parents today, if they'd thought I was a pollster or something. My mother, I'm pretty sure, thinks I'm just in advertising, because I always want it to be in advertising, and obviously I am to a degree. We're helping brands understand consumers so they can better market to them. My father would probably call me a businessman at this point, which some days I feel good about, some days I feel bad about. Sometimes I feel like too much of a businessman, not enough of an individual contributor, but that's where I'm at. But yeah, I think they would construe it as advertising for the most part or a businessman.

And it's always tricky at a cocktail party. You take the shortcut, I work in a software company and then most people just go, "Cool story, don't care." My longer story is, "You know the ads that you see on TV? Coca Cola or Pepsi spends a lot of money on those ads. And they want to talk to you to see if you like them, if it makes you feel better about them, my company does that really quickly and efficiently." So, I'm either going to that level of explanation or a software company, depending on who, and it's actually changed for me, Babita, because I used to say market research and they would always be like, focus groups.

Babita:

Clipboards.

Ryan:

Clipboards and focus groups. I'm like, "No, that's not what I do." So, all right. So, what do you say and what do your parents think you do?

Babita:

Well, again, it depends who I'm speaking to, sometimes I just say, "Oh yeah, it's not worth talking about," if I don't have the energy. But mostly I say, "I help organizations make better decisions around their products, around their marketing, and understand how consumers feel about them. So, it's embedded in that and it's linked with data, technology." So, that's sort of a fluff around that.

But the funniest thing is, my parents, I think they sort of know what I do, but then, I thought they did, but then I remember I went to a family wedding, these huge Indian weddings where you've got that hundred aunts and uncles of the family. And he said to my dad, "Oh, that's bubbly," my parents call me bubbly, "That's bubbly. What are you doing now?" My dad goes, "Oh, she's a VAT inspector." And my sister just burst out laughing. I went, "Don't even go there." I think he said VAT inspector or accountant because in the Asian culture an accountant is prestigious, forget market research. Do you know what I mean? So, going back to Michael's making industry cool, relatable is, I really want to do that, so my parents get what I do. My ultimate objective.

Ryan:

All right. I'm in to help with this because I actually do think what we do is cool. We help most famous brands in the world get closer with the people they want to get close with.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

I mean, it is cool, it is exciting. I sort of, like many people, I didn't fall into this space by accident, but I got into this space and I was like, "Oh now I got to work with smart people and talk about smart people." This is great. I love it. So, I have one more question before we let the people go. People may not know this about you, Babita, but your drink of choice is?

Babita:

Bubbly.

Ryan:

Is that where the nickname came from?

Babita:

No. It's just somehow, it was maybe a premonition that my parents had and I only worked it out about a year ago and I was like, my mom and dad call me bubbly and I love champagne. So, maybe they just saw it in me when I was five.

Ryan:

I think it's great. So, to everybody who's listening, Babita loves good champagne, she loves English champagne. She loves all sorts of champagne. So, next time you tip a glass of bubbly, coast it to bubbly and, Babita, I will do the same as well. It was good to see you, my friend.

Babita:

And you. So, that's it for this podcast, guys. I hope you enjoyed our interview and our conversation. So, please subscribe to our podcast. And if you have any suggestions for new speakers, what you'd like to hear about, please email us. You can email myself and Ryan directly, or our email address is, Ryan, I always forget this, but you remember it.

Ryan:

Insideinsights@zappistore.com. See, we're a team, we have each other's back, people. I hope you have a good day. Be kind to each other. Be good to everybody. And we'll talk to you soon.

Babita:

Bye.