Episode 69

How to create and embed an insights department

Jordan Cusner, Head of Guest Insights at Popeyes, discusses how he created an insights department and made it indispensable to business leadership, shares the mantra of insights he lives by and reveals what should be the first slide in every deck you produce.

The interview

Ryan: Hi, everybody, and welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. My name is Ryan, your host, and I am joined today by a wonderful man, Jordan Cusner, a friend of mine, a fellow New England sports fan and the Head of Guest Insights at Popeyes.

Ryan: Jordan, what's up, man? 

Jordan: Not much. Happy to be here, Ryan. 

Ryan: I love it. I like your chicken slaw shirt. If you're not watching us on YouTube, you have to check us out. We are both appropriately rocking our company's merch. So we get that going for us today.

Ryan: I've been trying to get Jordan on the show for a while, but he's a busy man. Um, and so we're going to dive right in today. The reason you're a busy man is because we'll talk a little bit about your outside of work life later, but you've stood up an insights team at a company that didn't previously have one at Popeyes.

Ryan: So let's just dive in, like, how did you go about that? What was that like for you? And what were some of the key things you had to do along the way to sort of get the foundation right? To make the company have the consumer centricity it does today? 

Jordan: Yeah, well, Popeyes is a great brand and they had a ton of success before I got there. I can't take any credit for the chicken sandwich in 1920 that really kind of changed the complexion of QSR. Everybody has a chicken sandwich now. So I think they, as an organization, have had so much success, but they knew, like, you know, classic, like, what got you here won't get you there kind of a mentality, and they want to kind of take it to the next level.

Jordan: And up until that point, it wasn't as though they had no insight. It was just a little bit more haphazard and people kind of doing it Wild West on their own, but certainly it was informed by insight and they had a, we have a strong, um, in our DNA, very analytical organization. I think it was really about formalizing some of those processes, bringing in the right partners to help to ensure that we were kind of staying true to the guest and  what the guest needs and wants.

Jordan: And having someone like me and my team, you know, my goal, as you pointed out, is to kind of foster a culture of guest centricity to ensure that all the decisions we make are informed by the guest. And in some respects to kind of be the voice of the guest at the table. So when I'm sitting at those strategy conversations, meetings, leadership, I try to bring the voice of the guest into those meetings and make sure that we're kind of staying true to those ideals.

Jordan: I always joke, like they're not paying me for my gut. Like I'm bringing the data and I'm bringing the insight. And hopefully that's an ad, a value add in those conversations. That was their intent, and that's what they wanted to do, and I think it's a testament to Popeye's commitment to making sure that guests kind of drives that growth.

Ryan: So we think about some of the infrastructure and the components. Where were some of the places you thought you needed to start? I mean, just knowing without, without giving away the company's secret sauce, but like, what are some of the areas that you're like, look, we got to build this. And I guess, how did, for those listening who are in a spot like you that are standing up insights, like what were some of the places you looked at first, second and third? 

Jordan: Yeah, well, one, and not to give you, Zappi, too much credit, but trying to think more, structurally about how we process innovation, how we find those great ideas, how we optimize them and then forecast and build those things into great products that our guests want.

Jordan: We didn't have a formal process around that on the insight side, I would say. And so that was a big, you know, a lift, a big lift for us to start also thinking about how to bring the different parts of our insight frameworks together. So, you know, we have a really good understanding of, you know, our restaurants and why people go into our restaurants and obviously we have our own first party data, which is a great thing to have having come from CPG where you're kind of relying on other sources.

Jordan: We know to the minute often, who's coming to the restaurant, what they're eating. So how do we bring those together and kind of understand not just what's happening in the restaurant, but the why behind that. So you think about brand equity, guest segmentation, understanding the needs and wants of our guests.

Jordan: So it's really about connecting the dots and taking the really powerful things we were already doing and, you know, enhancing those things, bringing them together to kind of get a more holistic view of the business and, and where those insights could take us. 

Ryan: I love the notion of the first party data.

Ryan: I mean, I imagine like particularly given you were at McCormick prior, like CPG businesses have to spend millions, frankly, on a disparate set of data sets to understand what happens at the register. Whereas when you own the register, it's, I think it's really mostly a blessing and you've done it, but sometimes that can culturally be a bit of a curse.

Ryan: I want to unpack something you said, like, we spend a lot of time with, with brands in our work. And obviously a lot of people listen or work for various brands. And I'm noticing still today, despite the rise of all the technology, there is a lack of system in place for how insights gets collected.

Ryan: And that was the first thing you said. And. By the way, we're super thrilled to be a part of your stack, but technology isn't really the thing. It's how you get the system in place. And, you know, there's a lot of wonderful technology out there. I mean, I think ours is the best, but I'm just a little bit biased, a little bit.

Ryan: How did you go about the process and people side of the from two of like, ‘Hey, we're not really doing this. We want to drive incrementality. We want to drive brand growth, but in order to do that, we need to bring insights into different stages.’ Walk us through some of the stakeholders and the stages you sort of needed to work through there.

Jordan: Well, the first thing, and I neglected to say this, but you alluded to it, is the people and the people on my team and the people on the, on our cross functional partners. That is really where the magic happens. And in fact, um, I saw a quote that really resonated with me from Stephan Gans at Pepsi, I know he’s a friend of yours, and a Zappi person who talked about, you know, the work before the work and the work after the work.

Jordan: That's where the insights people really kind of, and the category marketing folks, that's where they make a difference. And so data is data is data and the stack is important and the tech is important. But if you don't find a way to bring it to life and add that perspective then you're missing, you know, a lot of what potential is encapsulated in.

Jordan: So those, those insights to your point though, you know, I had the benefit of coming into an organization that wanted these things. And so, like,I realize now, like I would never join…first of all, I'm not leaving Popeye's. I love it here, but I would never join a company that didn't want to have an insight led business or an insight led strategy function. I don't want to be there trying to convince you that I need to exist. I think that should be a given and then we can work from there. And so I had an audience and a leadership team that knew we had a huge opportunity. And so there was a little bit of, to your point, sell in alignment around different processes, you're disrupting things I had, you know, leadership is very, very comfortable with kind of pushing our team and influencing them and kind of adding friction into the process to ensure that they're asking the right questions, filling out the briefs, the right way to get us to the most impactful results. That's a little bit hard. Sometimes you've got an organization that's kind of used to the Wild West.

Jordan: Nobody wants to kind of do it a different way, they don't always trust. And again, not even speaking about Popeyes, but broadly speaking, people don't always trust that some new process that seems to have more friction can get them to a better result. But when you have a leadership team saying, this is the way we're going to do it…so there was definitely some, you know, delicate conversations around, ‘Hey, here's how we've been doing a particular thing, you know, insight screening, what have you. We're going to do it a different way. Here's why.’ Or ‘We're moving from partner A to partner B. Here's why.’ You know, I think one of the big ones was in shifting some of our copy testing to work with Zappi Amplify.

Jordan: And we did a lot of work around that, validating it as being the right partner for us, from a handful of reasons, one of them being that it gave us more opportunity to learn about the creative and not just rubber stamp and say, ‘yes, good’ or ‘no, bad’, but also how do we make these TV commercials and other creative, how to make them better.

Jordan: And so I think there was a little bit of selling that was required there, but again, I had an audience of leadership that really wanted to get us to that next level and knew that this was the way to unlock that growth. 

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's always the same, right? It starts with leadership, realizing customer centric growth is actually important.

Ryan: But it's great to hear that you had not just the platform, but the people side of it. And I think one of the things that I'm really excited to hear you say is the learning points. It's too much testing happening and like, I can't imagine an agency partner of yours wants to be tested, but I do imagine you positioning the learning has helped and I guess has that strengthened your ability to work with the agencies in a more, um, constructive way to say, we're not here to grade y'all.

Ryan: We're here to do amazing things. 

Jordan: Oh my God, exactly. You know, our agency partners are awesome and we have a great team that we work with. This is meant to be one more way to help them bring the best creative forward. I've worked with agencies in the past who feel like we're always telling them this is bad and giving them a hard time, and it does feel like a bit of a homework exercise.

Jordan: But when we're able to pull that earlier in the process, it becomes not just the last part of what the agency is delivering, but rather an integral part of how they bring the best creative forward and deliver the best results and use it to their advantage. Like it's a win-win for everybody.

Ryan: Yeah, for sure. I want to come back to another thing you said, so the work the work before the work the work and the work after the work 

Jordan: Yeah.

Ryan: One of the reasons I am always preaching about systematization is partly because I sell a system but mostly because If you are intentional about a system, you can do the work after the work and the work before the work.

Ryan: And so how have you sort of reframed your own talent and your own staff and the way they work now that you've got an infrastructure under you where each Tuesday you're not going, how are we going to solve this question that just came in? 

Jordan: Yeah, I think, well, it's a great question. I don't feel comfortable saying I've solved it.

Jordan: I think it's a, it's a process and it's not just because one of those things that you're always getting better. I think we're kind of still kind of leaning into it. We're still kind of establishing a lot of those processes, we're onboarding new people to these different systems all the time.

Jordan: I think it's, it's continual, but the mantra that I kind of live with and what I kind of think about every day. And this, I got from one of my previous bosses is like, you know, if all I'm doing is taking orders from marketer and bringing it to agency, Zappi, whomever, and then coming back with the answers, and I'm not adding any value in that exchange, then I'm completely useless and I don't really need to be here.

Jordan: And I don't need this job and I'm going to get fired. So you know, I'm always trying to find those ways to think about the process to ensure that we're doing those you talked about the book end work before and work after exercises because that's where what we can do really comes to life. How do we drive to activation?

Jordan: How do we, on the front end, not only take those orders, but work with a team to figure out what they are driving towards? Help them crystallize their business plan, their business challenges. Turn that into guest questions. You know, sometimes marketers come to us and say, I want to run a turf, you know, or I want to run a concept test. And I say, well, let's take a step back. What are you trying to solve? And what we've done in my team to answer your question more directly is we've embedded the insights team with our marketers so that they're not showing up at our desk at the end of processing, saying I want to turf, but working with them, building out the business plan, identifying those opportunities for guest insights, really inform or enhance the work that they're doing and working on that together.

Jordan: And then, you know, ensuring that our partners fully understand our strategic vision for the business. That's kind of a, we're in the middle of that, right? So we're not just taking a brief and giving it there, but. How do we bring that to life in a way such that our partners can then value add contribute to these conversations and then on the back end, tell the story. Hugely important. Data is kind of boring and forgetful, but how do we turn it into something that's memorable?

Jordan: How do we drive to action? How do we ensure that there's accountability and we're and we're staying true to the insights? So again, it's kind of a constant thing, but I would say the one thing to answer your question directly that we've done is kind of embedded with the team to ensure that we're really part of those conversations early on versus as a last minute box checking exercise.

Ryan: Yeah. And I think like in your case, obviously the leadership was, was keen, right? Like wanted this there. I think, what would your advice be for somebody working in a business that maybe they need to fight their way to be that partner? And maybe you've been in a business like that, but yeah, would you go about tackling?

Ryan: Like, look, I need to be like your teammate. I want to be part of the flow. And, you know, people want to see to the table, but oftentimes you have to earn it. I mean, how do you think about that? 

Jordan: Yeah, so it's always going to come top down from leadership. If leadership doesn't care, or it's not invested in insight, then it's going to be really hard to move the needle with other folks.

Jordan: I think the strategy that I've employed, and luckily I've not been in a position like this too often, but it's building alliances with people in the organization, if they are asking for the insight and they're the ones going to leadership saying, we need more from this team. We need, they need more resources. We need more support. And it's not just coming from me. It's easy for me to be kind of pushed aside. Like, of course the insights guy wants more budget, right? But if it's other people saying we need more, here's what Jordan is putting together, here's what the team is, et cetera, I think that has been very impactful.

Jordan: And the other piece I would say is orienting the organization to leading with insight. So we talk about being guest centric. We talk about using insight to inform our strategy. But how does that materialize? Like, obviously it's in our, in our brief, it's in the work, but on a really basic level, and this is kind of silly, but I literally was just saying this today…

Jordan: The first slide of every deck needs to be, who is our guest? What does he or she want? What problem are we solving? And if, and if we can do that, we are training leadership to expect that we're training leadership to ask those types of questions. People don't bring those insights forward. And then it sets up the rest of whatever that presentation is, whatever it is, you're pitching a new product launch. You're talking about a new window where you want to do some big splashy marketing thing, whatever, fine. But, but ultimately who are we talking to and why, and if we can have that be the, the beginning of every presentation we give then, you know, A. job security for me, but it also orients the organization to be thinking about everything through that lens.

Jordan: And to your point about not having consensus or not having support, if that's the way my peers and the marketing team are bringing their, their presentations to leadership, then it kind of starts to kind of inch us closer and closer to having that, you know, consensus at the top. 

Ryan: I love it. I mean, I had a former journalist on this podcast a couple of weeks ago, and it was like, his advice to people with storytelling was, you know, start with headlines because people don't have the attention span.

Ryan: But, but it's similar to what you're saying. And I, I often think one of the things marketing teams miss, and not to pick on any marketing team in, in, uh, in particular, is the full orientation with your customer. So if you think of a Popeye's customer, they might also be a Jersey Mike's customer. They might also go out for a steak dinner with their family tonight and sushi tomorrow and go to the gym and the bar at the same time.

Ryan: And, and I think so often  brands forget about the full orientation and they're just like, so category focused. So I love that you're, I love that you're starting with the customer. And so I, this is like a, I guess kind of a random question for you, but how are you staying sharp on that persona and I guess leveraging, you do a lot of insights work at Popeyes.

Ryan: You know, like on a day to day basis, how do you start to leverage all that information to keep that first slide sharp? Because it strikes me that that's like a major catalyst of value for everybody every time you keep reinforcing it. And it's similar, like in our business, I have a flywheel in every single presentation.

Ryan: It's like, we give our customer a better answer easily. They'll adopt more. The answer will get better. And it's like, people are sick of hearing it. But it's like, I guess my question is, how do you keep that sharp and bring all you know together to keep enforcing that market orientation? 

Jordan: Yeah, I'm not sure I've got a great answer.

Jordan: I mean, a lot of this is relatively new for, uh, in terms of this particular framework, obviously it's orientation. Um, I think one of the ways is, well, two things I would say. One is continually investing in that with our marketers. I think I have this aspiration that all of our marketing teams should be doing at least one, if not more than one ethnography with our guests so that it's not just a slide and it's not a one dimensional thing, but it's an experience that they've had, that they've observed, and then two, it's about integration and making sure that if I believe this to be a foundational framework, that's going to drive our business, then, okay, well, it needs to be.

Jordan: Integrated into all the other things that we do. And we've done that. We've done it with Zappi. We've done it with our equity tool. We've done it with our needed insights framework, a number of other places where you can kind of think about, you know, you're, it's no longer compartmentalizing. Okay, let's look at our concepts. Okay, now let's look at our equity. Now let's look at this. It all comes together through the lens of our guests and our guest segmentation. 

Ryan: I mean, I love that. I don't want to lead the witness, but I'm just curious about how you see technology and AI's role helping me with that in the future. I mean, I know you're getting the buzzword bingo in your inbox every day, but how were you thinking about some of these trends and sort of models and data accessibility and other things?

Jordan: I think, you know, the one thing I'm, I'm not like a huge early adopter of AI. I think I use it personally. I think it's fun, but I have not, I don't have 100 percent confidence in it yet as a business tool. One place where I know and I've just been talking to some vendors about this is Google.

Jordan: Is there a way to capture all of our data across different sources and have one unified way of extracting those, those insights? And right now, to your point, it's disparate and we connected to some degree. You know, the holy grail we were talking about with another partner was, you know, natural language searching and being able to kind of extract insight.

Jordan: Right now, you're still limited to, you know, You know, did we do this? Did we test the chicken sandwich in July? And yeah, the portal can tell me I did it, but it's not telling me what people think about it. And it's certainly not integrating different data sources. And I know there's been talk about building synthetic audiences using our segmentation data or other data.

Jordan: I'm like, all that sounds really cool. I'm not sure I have the cojones to be like the first in line to that exercise. Maybe I should. It feels like every day it gets exponentially better, but I don't feel like I'm the guy who's figured that out yet. So any of you listeners are there, shout at me if you have an answer.

Ryan: You know, you just opened yourself up for a litany of cold outreach, dude. 

Jordan: Well, can I, I'll tell you one thing, and, and this is a great talk about your flywheel. Because this is not, Zappi is, and I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but like it's a technology and it's a platform and all that, but that's not what appeals to me about Zappi.

Jordan: And when vendors reach out to me with like some really cool story about an algorithm, like I'm done. Like I don't care. Like I need to know, like, how is this going to help my business? Like, and the, the cool tech that you have is really not relevant. You know, if there was a 12 year old girl selling lemonade on the corner of my street who could help me make a better chicken sandwich, I'd give her whatever she wanted.

Jordan: Like it doesn't matter. 

Ryan: You're trying to sell more sandwiches. 

Jordan: Whatever it is, whatever it is. And so to come to me with some cool tech that doesn't really connect the dots to my business or is half baked, or it's a pitch that's focused entirely on tech. It's not going to work. 

Ryan: Yeah, I think this is something, I mean, this happens in the B2B vendor side where I operate, but also I think in the brand side where you got a solution looking for a problem and, and we, we, we talked a few minutes ago about anchoring and market orientation.

Ryan: It's the same thing in jobs to be done and problem assessments. Like if. If there isn't a problem or an occasion in the construct of your world, then there probably isn't a need for it. And I think too many people, and it happens in big CPGs as much as it happens with vendors that try to sell to you, where it's like, I needed to launch something and so I'm going to launch something and here's an idea.

Ryan: And how do we make it fit? And it's like, if you start with the customer's problems, you'll always innovate better. And you can do more efficient market research to validate your stuff on the way there. But I think oftentimes we start with the toy, not the problem, and beware of that, people. 

Jordan: Right, and it goes back to the point you made earlier about how our guests are also Jimmy John's guests, or having sushi, you know.

Jordan:  Byron Sharp and how brands grow. He would say, nobody cares about your brand as much as you do. And so Yeah. And, and the solution to their problem, their problem might be dinner for my family. It can be pizza. It can be sushi. It could be Mac and cheese. It could be Popeye's. But if you don't take into account what they're really trying to solve for your point, and that's a very basic example, then there's just no, why would they even choose your product?

Jordan: You're not speaking to what they're trying to solve. You're just trying to shop from the rooftops about a better sauce on your, you know, ham and cheese at Jimmy John's or whatever. 

Ryan: So I want to change gears a little bit. So you're an insights leader at a great company, an iconic brand. It's grown like crazy. You're also a father of five. How do you balance staying sharp as a, as a businessman, but also being there for your family?

Ryan: I mean, that's, that's gotta be quite a juggling act for you. I'd love, I'd love you to share some of your insights of how you balance both. 

Jordan: I wish I knew. I have five girls. Um, it's a lot and they're great. And it's, you know, it's, it's my motivation. It's why we do anything. So I'll give you one tip and I don't think this is all that creative or original, But a couple of years ago, I started doing this maybe, I don't know, five or maybe 10 years ago now, where we plan these special one on one adventures.

Jordan: Like we, you know, they call them special adventure days and my kids now they like to ask for them. I think at first it was this like crazy idea that I had. And we do these. You know, and A, I'm present. B, I get one on one time with each of the girls and it's, it's really special. And that can't tide you over for the whole year, naturally. You know, you have to find other ways to be supportive and be a good dad, and I hope I do that as well. But that's a fun way to, like, recharge and something to look forward to. And I, you know, selfishly, I like doing fun stuff. So I have like a running list of all the crazy ideas that I have.

Jordan: So like, you know, a couple of things that we've gone to like crazy concerts, uh, we went to Chicago and did an improv class in the second city. Disney world. I mean, like whatever crazy ideas I can come up with, Disney world is not that crazy. But a lot of good ones. And listen, we all work really hard. I don't think I have the market corner and having long days, but you have to, you have to do other stuff. I'm a bit of a workaholic, unfortunately. My wife, if she was here, she would, she would agree.

Jordan: So you gotta, you gotta find time to like, stay sane. And if you're, you're only living in that space, you're not going to be a good dad. You're not going to be a good employee. You have to have a balance.  

Jordan: I encourage my team to take time, and to decompress and it, I know that it helps me and I'm sure it helps them to come to the office and be excited about coming back to work when you take a weekend and go to the Bahamas or whatever you're doing. 

Ryan: That's where I'm going next weekend. Did you know that?

Jordan: Oh, there you go. See? Permission granted. 

Ryan: Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that because I need some sun in my life for those of you who don't live on the east coast. It's been a long year of gnarly weather. 

Ryan: I love the one on one time. We're obviously both Celtics fans. We've only been to one game together and it was, uh, not fun, but it was memorable.

Ryan: But I'm actually doing, uh I try to do day dates with my kids too. And I'm going on a date with my daughter this weekend and we're going to watch the Celtics. So that'll be a lot of fun. So on the work front, I mean, where do you get your inspiration? How do you stay sharp? Like what, what are some of the places you go to outside of the Popeye's walls to get your, you know, to get your own brain humming? 

Jordan: Man, that's a hard one.You know, I've had, I've been in organizations where we've had inspiration days when I was at Hasbro, like one day, a quarter, more frequently, we would just go off and do something crazy as a team.

Jordan: We don't do that on my team, but we do Thursday mornings at Popeye's. So instead of being in the office, you're looking at me like, but you already are at Popeye's. Well, Thursdays we work from a restaurant. And so it's a fun change of pace, just the insights team. And we have visions of, you know, interviewing folks and bringing cross functional people in to kind of get their perspective on the business front of house, back of house, the guests, et cetera, keeps us in touch with our guests and it's a nice change of pace, just getting out of the office.

Jordan: So, yeah, my team was in Miami yesterday. I commute to Miami, but I'm in Baltimore this week. And so I was in a Popeye's in Columbia, Maryland, and they were at one outside of Miami and we were both keeping it strong from, you know, miles apart, but I think, you know, that's really cool. 

Jordan: And again, that's a little bit businessy, but it also, it breaks the monotony and it keeps you in touch with what's actually happening. It's so easy in any business, not just Popeyes, to kind of forget that there is a person making this product, selling it to someone else who's buying it for their kids or what have you.

Jordan: And when I go to Popeyes, I eat there a lot. I'm a big, I'm a super fan. I love the food, always have, and when I go, I don't tell anybody I work there, I just chit chat and talk to people and understand, get to hear how they feel about the food and the experience and it's, it's just a informal way to kind of keep your pulse on what's actually happening in the trenches.

Ryan: I love it. I mean, you can learn a lot by just getting into public and just observing culture, right? You know, you're doing it on a day to day basis. I sort of, uh, I read a good amount, but a lot of my inspiration is weirdly coming from nature. Like I'll go for a walk outside and stare at the trees and then I get all these ideas, but I like the people watching like you sit watch the world go by.

Ryan: And all the data aside, it's nice to just feel the population a little bit and see what's going on out there. 

Jordan: I just yesterday I was, I don't want to say I was being creepy, but I'm sitting in the back of a Popeye's and I'm working and I'm kind of just listening to people's conversations at one and watching their behaviors, thinking about why did that happen?

Jordan: There was a dad and his son that came in and had lunch and just trying to figure out like what's going on there. Sometimes I walk over and talk to them and sometimes I just kind of make up my own backstory, but it kind of adds more color to that experience. 

Ryan: I love it. All right, last question for you before we run out of time.

Ryan: What advice do you have for somebody who's starting their career in insights today, knowing everything you know about where the industry is going, completely on all vectors, people, process, technology, what advice would you have for somebody? Yeah. 

Jordan: So I was interviewing at Hasbro a billion years ago, and I was young, new in the career and in the industry and just getting my career started.

Jordan: And I was confronted with a question by the head of the team at the time, Jackie Freyden, a good friend. 

Ryan: Hey, Jackie. I hope you're listening, Jackie. I know Jackie, anybody who's ever lived in Rhode Island. We're all, we're all, I'm a Rhode Islander, through and through. 

Jordan: Yeah. Well, I was not, I don't know. I wasn't really ready for this. And she asked me a question like, ‘Well, why do you love what you do? What do you bring to the table?’ I had to just like, I think it was like, give me three adjectives that describe you. And I wasn't prepared. And I just said, whatever came to my mind and it worked and I got the job.

Jordan: But I think about it a lot. I think one of the things I talked about, which I think is actually true to my personality and bodes well for someone in insights, is I'm curious. And you think about it, you talked about AI and technology and all that. It can never replace, you know, the human desire to kind of like go one step deeper, figure this out on an emotional level. 

Jordan: I was at TMRE earlier this year, last year, I can't remember now. And there was a woman in Amber Case who's like an AI expert who spoke and she said, you know, AI has gotten to the place where it can, it can churn out Seinfeld scripts over and over and over again. But what it can't do is come up with the idea to have a television show like Seinfeld, like that is not right.

Jordan: And so. Yeah, there's a little bit of trepidation of like, where's this industry going, you know, every different organization merging, uh, different technology solutions, kind of putting people in or out of business. But what won't change is that we insights people and marketers and humans are going to always kind of be thinking about what's next and challenging to use the data in different ways.

Jordan: And if you bring that curiosity to work, you'll, you'll go far. 

Ryan: I love it. I think it's true. I've said this before. There's books about people in psychology from the thirties that are as relevant today as they are as they were then. And I think in a world where, you know, we're both fathers of kids, their technical paradigm is going to be different, but people are still going to be people.

Ryan: And I think that's the constant. So spend more time on that than anything. 

Jordan: Absolutely. 

Ryan: So what do you think, Celtics going to win the NBA championship? 

Jordan: If we don't, I'm moving to Panama. I don't know what to do. I was just looking at the numbers last night where the best team in the league by the record, even though we keep losing weird games, we shouldn't lose and blowing a 25 point lead to the Hawks.

Jordan: I have no patience for that. But that's basketball. Like no one wins all the games, so maybe I should be less critical. 

Ryan: I think so. They're gonna win. For those of you who aren't basketball fans, we would welcome you to be a Boston Celtics fan. Get on the bandwagon. And another team, Jordan and I are sorry for you.

Jordan: Yeah, we're raising the 18th banner soon. 

Ryan: That's it. Yeah. Thank you for listening everybody. Jordan, thank you for joining the show. 

Jordan: My pleasure, thanks for having me. Thanks for everything you do for the insights industry. You're a, you're a good leader and keep carrying the torch for us.

Ryan: I'm just trying to carry the torch for consumer centric businesses. That's really what it is. 

Jordan: Nice. 

Ryan: Beautiful. Thanks everybody.