Tapping your audience as bold creative partners

Nataly Kelly [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Inside Insight, where marketing strategy meets consumer truth with your host, Nataly Kelly. Creativity isn't easy. It's personal. As Chris Bellinger recently wrote, creative is a contact sport. Not every idea makes it, and getting feedback can sting. But the truth is, feedback is the lifeblood of the creative process, and the payoff is real.

Nataly Kelly [00:00:27]:

Recent research shows that campaigns refined with consumer feedback deliver up to 55% higher ROI than those that don't. Because the strongest creative ideas aren't just dreamed up in a boardroom. They're shaped through conversation, iteration, and perhaps above all, listening. I'm Nataly Kelly, and joining me today is Chris Bellinger, Chief Creative Officer at PepsiCo Foods US, the team behind iconic brands like Lay's, Doritos, and Quaker. We'll explore how Chris and his team bring feedback into the creative process, how technology is changing the way ideas are built, and why consumer involvement is more important than ever.

Nataly Kelly [00:01:06]:

Thank you for being here with me, Chris.

Chris Bellinger [00:01:08]:

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Lovely to be with you today.

Nataly Kelly [00:01:12]:

So I would love to start by asking a question. I referenced the quote at the start from you that a lot of us use in the industry: "Creative is a contact sport." I love that quote. And I'd love to ask you, how do you set a standard for creative excellence at Pepsi Mexico while leaving room for risk and bold ideas?

Chris Bellinger [00:01:28]:

Yeah. So, I mean, first and foremost, creative is personal. And I think that's something we all kind of forget. Like, these are ideas that are born in the shower, while we're driving, in a random time, and they become our little babies that we nurse and grow and build and we can see all the possibilities of how amazing they could be. And then you get into round one and get told that's stupid. And so it's just all this time and effort and energy that gets put into creating something out of thin air that nothing ever existed, just to be told that it's not good. That's why it makes it a contact sport. It makes it personal.

Chris Bellinger [00:02:03]:

And so I think the biggest thing that we try to do is put humans and consumers first at the center of everything that we do so that we are really ensuring that, hey, is this something anyone's going to actually care about? And I know that's a weird thing to say, but the reality is you can make things for the industry or you can make things for the public. And I think we kind of forget the two sometimes.

Chris Bellinger [00:02:27]:

And we call them blockbusters versus Oscars. And where, hey, blockbusters are those multibillion dollar franchises. And then there's the really high end craft artistic ones that are for the Oscars, but that's really for the art, that's for the industry. And so it's balancing when and how you do both of those and bringing them to life and understanding there's a role and there's a place for both, but it's understanding and being really open with ourselves about. There's a lot of times we are not the demographic, we are not the consumer.

Chris Bellinger [00:02:59]:

And so how do we make sure we put ourselves back in their shoes?

Nataly Kelly [00:03:04]:

It's so interesting that you mentioned the blockbuster versus the Oscars because consumer feedback plays a role in both. Right? And so it's interesting. It's like where do you act on the feedback and at what point in the process and, you know, what percentage of the work is really for blockbusters versus Oscars? I'm just curious if you have a take on that.

Chris Bellinger [00:03:23]:

Yeah, so we do have something called 70-20-10. And 70% of the stuff that we do in our budget goes to tried and true things that we know are going to work. Because at the end of the day, advertising is selling products. It is getting people to fall in love with your brand to hopefully go buy them.

Chris Bellinger [00:03:41]:

We jokingly say the best idea in the world that doesn't move product is actually a really bad idea because we forget that this is commerce. That's what we're supposed to do and that's how what we're supposed to be pushing for. The next thing that comes along, this is that 20%. 20% is, hey, we've tried this before. It might be an experiment, but we're pretty sure it's gonna work.

Chris Bellinger [00:04:03]:

But we've never done it before, so let's kind of dip our toe into it. And then the 10% is. I have no idea. But what if it works? What if it fucking hits?

Chris Bellinger [00:04:15]:

What if things go awesome? And then there's also an element of being willing to take that risk because it's 10%. I've got 90% of my budget that's going towards things that I'm pretty sure are gonna move the needle. So let's take a swing on some 10%. Let's see what happens.

Chris Bellinger [00:04:33]:

But if it does crush it, it's going to 10x what our investment was in it. And then we learned something new about that. And, you know, we always jokingly say, once you figure out what the algorithm is, the algorithm changes. So just because everybody else has been doing something that you know is going to work and something becomes a best in class example of how to do it. And then next thing you know, the following week, someone breaks every rule in the rulebook and that becomes the new best in class because the algo on all of the social channels and the way that social media works now rewards things that actually break the rules.

Nataly Kelly [00:05:10]:

That's so interesting. I love this 70-20-10 framework because it gives you that room for experimentation that's quantified and that's important to be able to apply budget and apply resources, headcount, et cetera, time in that way. But as you said, if you're not thinking about what's next and where the consumer is going to, not just where they are today, then you might miss landing at the spot where they are when things actually come to market. Because there is that little lag between where an idea happens and where it reaches the market in the whole development process. So.

Chris Bellinger [00:05:42]:

Oh, always it's a balance of art and science. And we talk about that all the time where, you know, we get briefs that say, well, what's going to be really popular next fall? I don't know. Like, sure, if I knew that I wouldn't be here. Like I would.

Chris Bellinger [00:05:56]:

We, we'd be on a yacht somewhere because I'd be predicting the lottery numbers. But I think that's a really big component of it is how are you keeping a constant pulse on what real people are doing and saying and at the same time, how are you keeping a pulse on what the tipping point is going to be? Because you do have to analyze and predict outwards because just something that's really popular right now, it takes six to seven months sometimes to put a campaign into the world, sometimes longer and it's death by a thousand cuts. So your original idea gets whittled down by decisions by committee that then when it finally launches, not only did you miss the trend of the consumer inspiration, but now you've missed the creative spark and soul of the idea.

Chris Bellinger [00:06:40]:

And so what gets put out into the world is neither. And that's the worst thing that can possibly happen is you always say, I'd much rather someone hate my spot than someone didn't even notice that it ever launched.

Nataly Kelly [00:06:54]:

That's so true. They need to feel something.

Chris Bellinger [00:06:57]:

Yes. At least see it.

Nataly Kelly [00:06:59]:

Yeah, that's right. I mean a lot of our data shows that the worst, you know, you can have a negative emotion in response to an ad. You can have a positive emotion, but the worst is neutrality when there's literally no emotional impact whatsoever.

Chris Bellinger [00:07:13]:

Yeah, that's the terrifying part is like, well did you see what we did? And they're like, I've never heard of this. And you're like, oh, that hurts. I'd much rather you have seen it and hated it. Well, obviously I want you to see it and love it, but I'd rather you have seen it and hated it than been like, I never saw it or heard about it from anybody. To make zero impact is probably the worst.

Nataly Kelly [00:07:37]:

Yeah, well, related to that question of consumer feedback and where it has impact. I'm curious where you believe it has the most impact. Is it at the beginning or later or throughout the process or where do you think consumer feedback can be the most powerful and impactful on the creative process?

Chris Bellinger [00:07:55]:

I mean this is a very personal opinion. So I do, I apologize to all my planner and insights friends and data collectors and everything else. I love data. Data to me is not a four letter word. It is, you give me enough data I can predict the future. Now that being said, I like data that comes from in-environment experience and testing. So I'm not a big fan of qual testing because I just think you get 20 people in a room and they could be swayed very easily.

Chris Bellinger [00:08:23]:

Um, but I do like when people can sit and react to something and so leveraging data when they're looking at an edit or even a storyboard or a rip-o-matic or animatic because they're seeing in a little bit how you're going to be seeing it in the world. And so that kind of data I think is extremely valuable. Obviously real world data, if we can optimize in real time, that's the ultimate type. But I'm in the camp where usually when you're in edit or when you're very deep conceptual stages that gives me a quantifiable. I like quantity more than anything because it's objective, it's sitting there, it's saying, and I use it as directional, I don't use it as gospel because if we see it's directionally we're on the right steps of something and we can see some great context that says, hey, this is a confusing idea or oh, we've overstepped, now we're actually turning people off.

Chris Bellinger [00:09:16]:

That's early enough to then really make some adjustments so that the idea can stay pure and we can continue to, you know, evolve the creative and push where we need to. But there's always a line. And so I think the quant data really helps us understand where that line is.

Nataly Kelly [00:09:34]:

Oh, I love that answer. I don't think you'll anger anyone in my world with that, because we really do believe that the quant data is huge for optimizing and figuring out which pieces can be fine tuned. You know, I think the danger with qualitative is it's so generic and sweeping sometimes like, "Well, I don't like the ad," but what part of the ad or what piece or what is it this character? Is it this word? Is it this color? Is it this, you know, specific moment? So I love that focus on quantitative as well.

Nataly Kelly [00:10:08]:

So I would love to ask you a question about our favorite topic that everyone is buzzing about, AI, if we're not tired of talking about AI yet. So AI and new tools are changing the creative process. I'm wondering if you're seeing technology actually reshape ideation, testing or even production inside PepsiCo. How are you seeing, if you're seeing AI, change things in any dramatic way?

Chris Bellinger [00:10:31]:

Yeah, I mean, to me, listen, AI is just another tool. It's no different than when TV came out and they said that was destroying radio or when Photoshop came out and it was destroying hand, handwritten written art. Like, I just think AI is another tool and it actually is unleashing creativity. I think it gives you the opportunity to have a brainstorm partner. If you don't, it has the ability to say somebody who doesn't have that skill set of art direction is now able to bring some of their ideas to life.

Chris Bellinger [00:10:57]:

That gives it a proof of concept. You have people that are able to take a story that they had in their head and do a 30 second spot via a lot of the AI tools. Now, do I think it has to be regulated? Absolutely. And like, you know, I am definitely not a fan of the idea that hey, you can just crank something out on AI and it steals people's art or it steals people's IP or it replaces the human component of it.

Chris Bellinger [00:11:21]:

But I do think it can supercharge creativity in a way early on in the ideation and conceptual and even animatic phases. Now how that comes into the real world, that's another story. And I think everybody's got to get a little bit of an understanding of how far do you push it and when is it enhancing the human creativity and when is it replacing it?

Nataly Kelly [00:11:44]:

Yes, I love that we've talked internally with some of my colleagues about AI being important kind of at the beginning of the process, but also in, you know, the interstitial kind of phases along. But you kind of need the human at the beginning too for strategy and the human at the end for taste and judgment and making sure that it's actually going to resonate. So I love that you're thinking about it that way as an accelerant to human creativity. It's great.

Nataly Kelly [00:12:06]:

Chris, so question for you about a popular topic, feedback loops. Feedback loops, you know, can be internal. They can be with the consumer, they can be with all the different stakeholders involved in a creative process, but they can be messy. But they can also really be powerful. So I'd love to learn from you. You know, what do you think about designing an iterative process that actually brings you to stronger ideas with collaboration throughout as part of that whole feedback loop mentality?

Chris Bellinger [00:12:36]:

This is super hard. And I don't think there's any one way to do this because the reality is feedback is designed to enhance and kill. And because you can't go in with 22 ideas to any one round, there's just too many. The human brain can't process that. So there's an element of feedback that can be designed to either tear down, which is sometimes necessary, and rebuild, but then also it's how you uncover pieces that are vulnerable.

Chris Bellinger [00:13:08]:

And we have a process called bulletproofing, where there's actually kind of a red team, blue team approach, where somebody who we have an idea that we really love, but then we get in a room and there's three or four people whose entire job is to kill this idea. What can they do to find out that kills it? And there's a way to give and accept feedback that you can defend an idea without being defensive. And those are two very different things.

Chris Bellinger [00:13:32]:

And it's hard for a lot of young creatives to kind of learn that because it's so personal that you feel like if an idea is not well received, that it's a bad look for you. Instead of an idea of, like, just sometimes there's bad ideas. And I know everyone always says, like, there are no such thing as bad ideas. I'm like, there absolutely are such things as bad ideas, and we should be okay with that. One of my old roles was a concept or my whole job was just to come up with ideas and pitch them.

Chris Bellinger [00:14:01]:

And part of it was 99 times out of 100 being told this idea was stupid and people being that blunt. And I was actually kind of really grateful that I got that many reps early on because it made me kind of, you know, thick skin, but also understanding the, well, why? Why is this a bad idea? What's the piece of it? How could I have saved this? And so the feedback loops are dangerous because I think if they're not treated in the right type of environment, with the right type of people, with an understanding of what feedback is designed to do, they can be entirely and very disheartening and shuts down creativity and shuts down people that are wanting to push.

Chris Bellinger [00:14:39]:

And at the same time, I think from a client perspective, everyone feels like they have to give feedback, even if they love the idea. And so that's something we're trying to change over here is just because you have feedback doesn't necessarily mean that it should go out or that just because you haven't said something doesn't mean you're not contributing. Sometimes the ideas are good, in which case just say, this idea is good.

Chris Bellinger [00:15:03]:

It doesn't need feedback. And then there's other times when people feel like, well, I didn't feel like I could say anything. And I'm like, why didn't you? Because it turns out that was a really insightful piece of commentary. I wish you would have brought that up because it exposed something that none of us had thought of. Maybe you have a personal experience or relevance or insight into this culture or demographic, and that's why you should really speak up on those situations now.

Chris Bellinger [00:15:27]:

Not all feedback needs to be taken. And so it really is its own game of art and science in terms of feedback loops. I also think the longer that we sit with ideas, the more bored we get with them. And we always have to keep reminding people, hey, for consumers, this is the first time they're going to see it.

Chris Bellinger [00:15:50]:

So I know we've been talking about this for six months. Can you please stop killing this idea or tweaking it or adjusting it? You fell in love and bought it and authorized the budget for a reason. But now the idea we're making is nothing that has to do with the idea that was bought. And that's a really hard thing to do, too, and take acknowledgement of to say, hey, just because you're bored doesn't mean anyone else is.

Chris Bellinger [00:16:17]:

And we kind of call it season three syndrome, where for TV shows, it's like, season one's amazing. Everyone falls in love with it. Season two is a little different. And you're kind of like, why? Why'd this change a little bit?

Chris Bellinger [00:16:30]:

And then season three, you have new characters and side stories and things that have nothing to do with season one. And everyone's baffled that no one's happy about it. It's because the writers and the actors got bored. But the consumer and the viewers at home is like, I fell in love with this show because it was this and now it's all changed and I don't know why. And we do the same thing with advertising.

Chris Bellinger [00:16:50]:

We sit with ideas for anywhere between 6 to 12 to 24 months. And the idea that everybody fell in love with is now nowhere to be seen because we got bored with it. And we need to remember that consumers are going to see it for the first time. And so try and keep it as pure as you can to the original idea, build on it, make it better, but don't get bored with it because we move on from ideas way faster than anyone else does.

Nataly Kelly [00:17:13]:

Wow, that is so interesting. You know, it reminds me, in my early days being a writer, I got so much feedback that things were redlined almost to where there was no black left. And it made me... But I had to incorporate a lot of that feedback because it was my boss. But, you know, as a result, I'm kind of bulletproof in terms of, you know, receiving feedback. Now when people make red lines, I'm like, okay, okay. Unless it's an unreasonable change. You know, I'm just like, oh, that seems to be a good point.

Nataly Kelly [00:17:43]:

And I approach it with, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't make those comments and feedback unless there was some merit or some reason behind it. But to your point, if you're not understanding what feedback is necessary and adding it with intention and, you know, impact, then it can be very messy and it can leave us with. It can be really messy.

Chris Bellinger [00:18:05]:

And it's hard because it's subjective.

Nataly Kelly [00:18:08]:

Yes.

Chris Bellinger [00:18:09]:

That's the other thing that's really hard is when we see it all the time in award juries. If you had replaced one person in that award jury, then all the awards may be different because everybody has a different perspective and different element and perception of the world. And so where you might love the blue duck, someone else may see it and be like, I cannot believe they picked a blue duck. That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Nataly Kelly [00:18:32]:

That's so interesting. So I would love to know about your thoughts about the future. When you think about the role of consumer feedback and consumer input and creators and AI evolving, you know, how do you think that's going to play out in the next five years?

Chris Bellinger [00:18:49]:

I mean, I think what you've seen with the rise of social media is that consumer feedback now happens whether you want it or not, and that the fact that everybody has a platform to say and talk about things, consumer feedback has always existed. It was the water cooler. Before that, it was people talking to their neighbors and friends and coworkers. Now they're just able to shout it into millions and millions of people online. And so I think anybody who thinks that consumer feedback is something that, like, almost should be discounted is kind of lost the plot a little bit. I think you have to do a better job of tying into consumers and seeing how in real time you can get some of that information, you know, people that are going to be vocal about it whether you want them to or not.

Chris Bellinger [00:19:30]:

And so once that spot's out in the world, you no longer control the narrative. So how can you get your hands wrapped around it before then? And I think that's where the consumer research and consumer data points really come in handy.

Nataly Kelly [00:19:48]:

Oh, that's a wonderful answer. I love that. Yeah, it's true. Consumer feedback is literally all around us. And sometimes the question is, how do we consolidate all of it and bring it into the right spaces and places where it can make an impact? Wow. Well, I think it's a skill.

Chris Bellinger [00:20:05]:

I think it's a skill too. How to analyze data and information and understand, oh, I see why everybody's saying this, but if I tweak it, I can save it versus knee jerk a reaction to it and saying, well, everyone hates it. It's like, well, hold on, they don't hate it. This is what the reaction is, and vice versa, where you start to see stuff that says everyone's in love with it, and then you launch it into the world and no one cares and you just interpreted the wrong way either. So I think, you know, as creatives, we almost kind of got get deep into the data analysis and understand that it is directional, it's a guide, but it's not an end all, be all predictor of the future.

Nataly Kelly [00:20:38]:

That's really insightful. I'm curious, Chris, of any of the campaigns that you've worked on recently or that have come out recently that you can talk about. Have there been anywhere, you know, there was a specific piece of consumer feedback that kind of changed the direction or made some really big impact that you can think of? You know, anything recently that has come across your plate?

Chris Bellinger [00:20:59]:

Yeah, I mean, we had a lot of fun with the, you know, the recent Walton Goggins Doritos Golden Sriracha spot, which was a spicy but not too spicy film. And, you know, it was designed around everything you're not supposed to do, which is long form, thematic, different areas, from a creative perspective, fell in love with it, but from a general consumer standpoint, it was kind of like, is this something that we think is going to resonate? Not only that, I had a lot of 70s references. So would Gen Z get an understanding of any of this? And we tested it with a handful of different consumers in different ways. And what it really started to tell us was, hey, some of this stuff is resonating and some is kind of flying over their head.

Chris Bellinger [00:21:38]:

So do we need to go back and edit and make some visual tweaks and call outs so that the story lands faster and gets people hooked on it? And that did make some adjustments. And part of that too was we ended up making like four different versions and put them all out into the world to see which one could optimize in real time. But it was a good element of us going into this eyes wide open, that this is a risk and it's gonna land with some people, it's not gonna land with others. And let's see what happens.

Chris Bellinger [00:22:08]:

Thankfully, it all turned out great. We got nothing but positive feedback. But it definitely, before launching it was a little bit of like, we got like a 50-50 shot on this thing going south on us.

Nataly Kelly [00:22:20]:

So was this in the 10% bucket?

Chris Bellinger [00:22:22]:

This was definitely in the 10% bucket and it was all rooted around. How do you explain to somebody that golden Sriracha, which is not a well-known flavor, isn't that spicy? Because you see Sriracha and you immediately respond to that. Instead it's like, well, it's spicy but not too spicy. And so that's the language really needed to land. But we needed to do it in a really interesting and fun way. So that was why the 10% kind of idea came about.

Nataly Kelly [00:22:55]:

Wow, I love that. That is a nuanced message to try to get across.

Chris Bellinger [00:23:00]:

Very much so. And especially when you see it in store, you just see Sriracha and like I'm not a spice guy. So I would have seen it and would have never tried it. And then trying it and tasting it like, oh, this is actually pretty good. Okay, I can handle this.

Nataly Kelly [00:23:13]:

That's really great. I love that example. So, okay, I'm going to move us on to our lightning round where I'm going to ask you a few quick hitting consumer insights related questions. So are you ready, Chris?

Chris Bellinger [00:23:26]:

Let's do it.

Nataly Kelly [00:23:28]:

Okay, so question number one. What's one piece of feedback that completely reshaped a campaign you worked on?

Chris Bellinger [00:23:35]:

It was probably, I don't get it, I don't understand it, I don't get it. And it was one that I thought was just so idiot brick to forehead, idiot proof. And it was realizing that the connections that I've made in my mind don't necessarily translate to the idea we're presenting. So you have to walk people through that. And not only that, no one will see the upfront of the deck, they'll see what the final idea is. So it completely changed how we then presented ideas and thought through them of if a consumer's not going to understand this, then we probably have gone too far.

Nataly Kelly [00:24:07]:

Wow. "I don't get it," a piece of feedback to watch out for. That can help.

Chris Bellinger [00:24:13]:

Yeah, just like I don't get it at all. And I'm like, but how, you have all these things. He's like, well, how would I know that, none of that's here?

Nataly Kelly [00:24:21]:

Wow. I can imagine that that would stop everybody in their tracks.

Chris Bellinger [00:24:25]:

Oh, it absolutely did.

Nataly Kelly [00:24:27]:

Yes. Wow. Okay, so next question, what's the most surprising thing you've heard directly from consumers about a PepsiCo brand?

Chris Bellinger [00:24:36]:

I don't know if we've heard anything that surprising because I do a lot of the social media. So I mean, the worst thing I hear all the good and the bad and the worst. So there hasn't been anything super surprising. I think for Little Farmer, what we just did though was really interesting is we heard a lot of people say, I haven't seen a lot of people represent, you know, like the Midwest and living on a farm and growing up on a farm ever before. So to them it was really emotional seeing this little girl grow this potato in the back of her parents' farm. And that was kind of interesting and different because I just hadn't ever heard that before about Lay's. And it kind of unlocked some ideas of, wow, there, there is a lot here that we can showcase and talk about. And how else do you get people emotional about a potato?

Nataly Kelly [00:25:16]:

Well, my husband's Irish, so it's not that hard. I remember in Ireland, we drove by a sign that said "roosters" and some other words I'd never heard. And it had potatoes next to it. And I said to my husband, "Is rooster a word for potatoes?" And he said, "All words are words for potatoes."

Chris Bellinger [00:25:33]:

Yeah.

Nataly Kelly [00:25:35]:

But I actually love that Little Farmer ad. And I'm from the rural Midwest myself, so when I saw that ad, it really did resonate with me. And I think we forget that a lot of people who live in cities and urban spaces actually originally came from small towns outside of them. So I think it actually resonates with a good percentage of the population. So that is wonderful. So third question, what's one way technology has made your creative process faster or riskier?

Chris Bellinger [00:26:02]:

AI, it has made it absolutely faster, but it's also made it extremely risky. And I think just there's a lot of it where you have to be well guarded and well versed in what it can and can't do and what you should rely on it and what you should not rely on it for. Again, I think it's a way to supercharge creativity and ideas and bringing them to life, but it cannot replace what a human idea is and the human creativity that comes with it. So that piece, I think, is where we're on the verge of it being dangerous, but also being just good enough to be dangerous.

Nataly Kelly [00:26:35]:

Yeah. Okay. Five years from now, how will marketers spot and act on great ideas?

Chris Bellinger [00:26:41]:

First, I think that you are—this is where AI is going to come in. I think AI and data analytics and collection is going to be able to spot something that we see as trending to a tipping point. And not only that, are we going to be able to create stuff in days and not weeks, not months, and sometimes hours. And so I think the marketers who understand three things are going to win. One, what is consumer sentiment and how can you engage with it in a really authentic way? Two, does your brand have a strong enough North Star? Does it have a strong enough soul statement that is going to be ironclad that everyone will know and will be able to resonate with? I think we're going to go back to kind of the days where brands really do stand for something and stand for something that you could easily say. And then three, it's what's your appetite for risk? How quickly are you going to be able to move and are you willing to take that swing? Because in an era of content that's able to be created as fast as it can and deployed as fast as it can, attention is now going to be the single most greatest value that exists in the world. And how you claim that attention.

Nataly Kelly [00:27:46]:

Wow, I love that. I think it's particularly important for any advertisers in the Super Bowl. I think everyone is clamoring for attention in those particular moments. And I think outside the US a lot of people don't understand why super bowl ads are the way they are, but it is related to that factor you just mentioned. Yeah. Okay, in one sentence, why should creative leaders embrace feedback instead of fearing it?

Chris Bellinger [00:28:10]:

I listen. Feedback is always—they say feedback is a gift. And sure, sometimes it is. Sometimes it's a, you know, a shovel to the side of the head. So I think feedback is... you have to accept it, and we jokingly, you know, have, you know, a statement of like, hey, you're only allowed to be an asshole if you're that good. And very, very few people are that good. Otherwise, people have to like you. And so feedback is part of that process of really having to be respected and having to be liked and understanding that anybody can have an idea, anybody can have a build. Now, how you navigate that and how you take it and how you can have some elements of it, that gets tricky.

Chris Bellinger [00:28:52]:

And so I think there's pieces of this where we've just got to kind of learn to lean into it. It's part of the industry. At the end of the day, we're still a service industry, and we represent people that pay us to make things. And, sure, we'd love it if they would just give us a blank check and we could go out and make whatever it is that we want to make. But it gets tricky with that, because at the same time, having empathy for the brand teams, and the clients is that they're putting their careers on the line based on idea you came up with out of nowhere.

Chris Bellinger [00:29:19]:

And so that is looking at it differently now that I've gone in house and seen it a bit. You know, it really is a—they may only get to make one thing this entire year. You may be working on 12 pitches this month, but they are making one thing the entire year. So for them, this is do or die for them and for their livelihood and their families.

Chris Bellinger [00:29:44]:

And so that's why you have to have an understanding of why they're giving the feedback they're giving. They may have context they may be worried about. "No, I don't have the ability to take this wild swing. And if it works, then I win an Emmy, but if it doesn't work, I'm gonna get fired." And so from a feedback perspective, it's take the feedback with the empathy and earnest that it was given, but understand that not all feedback is created equal either.

Nataly Kelly [00:30:12]:

Right. I love that you're talking about the empathy for the people whose jobs could be on the line. But I think also it's, you know, even if you're reporting into someone higher level, like the CEO or the president of a business unit, it's also empathy for them because they're accountable to their shareholders. And so if something flops and the numbers are not where they need to be, the sales figures are not where they need to be, their job's also on the line. Shareholders also have, you know, value associated with those decisions, even if it's a lot of those decisions combined.

Nataly Kelly [00:30:38]:

So yeah, it's so much more that goes into it other than just a great piece of creative. Trust me, there's been thousands of ideas that I have fallen in love with and have never happened and I think could have crushed it and done amazing, but there was other things in the world at play.

Chris Bellinger [00:30:52]:

Yeah, it takes empathy but also humility to be able to say, okay, I had this idea, but I'm aware that there are all these other stakeholders that I need to be responsive to and it's that collaboration as part of the process.

Nataly Kelly [00:31:04]:

Wow. Great, great answers. I love the Lightning Round answers, Chris, and I loved this conversation with you today. That wraps up this episode of the Inside Insights podcast. Thank you so much to Chris Bellinger, Chief Creative Officer at PepsiCo Foods US for joining us. If you'd like to contact Chris, you can find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or at insideinsightspod.com or you can visit his company website at pepsico.com. If you haven't subscribed yet and want a regular stream of research and insights knowledge in your podcast feed, hit that subscribe button in your podcast app or follow us on YouTube. That's all for today, but until next time, thank you for joining us on Inside Insights.