How Unilever's Global Brand Director scales beauty brands across 190 countries

Steve Phillips [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Inside Insights, where marketing strategy meets consumer truth with your host, Steve Phillips. 90% of businesses are planning to enter new markets with different languages within the next five years. Yet over half admit they've already lost business due to poor localization. And 87% say that investing in translation and localization has directly contributed to successful expansion. The reality for global brands today is that the opportunity is massive, but only if you can scale while staying relevant. What works in one market may flop in another.

And with AI reshaping insights and execution, the roles are changing faster than ever. I'm Steve Phillips, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Ridhima Thukral, Global Brand Director at Unilever, home to some of the world's most iconic brands. Ridhima will share how global brands balance consistency with local nuance, how AI is transforming insights, and how to scale authentically in markets around the world. Welcome, Ridhima. How are you doing?

Ridhima Thukral [00:01:16]:

I'm good. I'm enjoying the weather in London, which is changing by the minute.

Steve Phillips [00:01:21]:

That's not possible. That's not possible. Be honest.

Ridhima Thukral [00:01:26]:

I mean, we can't control the weather. We can control our reaction to it.

Steve Phillips [00:01:32]:

That's very true. That's very true. What's the biggest myth you think about global brand scaling that even experienced marketers still believe today?

Ridhima Thukral [00:01:43]:

I think the biggest myth, and coming from, you know, what you were saying about scaling, Steve, is that very often we as marketers think that when we go to new markets, we have to water down our brand, we have to dilute our brand, we have to change our brand. But when I joined Dirt Is Good, which is one of our largest laundry brands, it's... We call it Dirt Is Good because it's different brands in different countries. If you're in the UK, you know it as Persil. If you're in France, you know it as Skip.

Steve Phillips [00:02:10]:

I grew up with it in India as Surf Excel. So it looks different, it's called different, but it's united by one philosophy. That is Dirt Is Good. We believe that a life well lived is about going out, rolling up your sleeves, getting dirty, having fun, and not a pristine white world where, you know, you are all wearing beautiful stainless clothes. So that—

Ridhima Thukral [00:02:32]:

And when we go, and we've had this philosophy for more than 20 years—I inherited this philosophy, I did not invent it. But when we go and we talk to people in Brazil about our powders, we show a kid getting dirty while playing football. In India, we show our festival of Holi, which is a festival of colors. I don't know if you've seen it, Steve—

Steve Phillips [00:02:55]:

It's like you just go out and you get dirty. It's a sense of community. It's a sense where all religions, classes, everyone comes together. So the expression of Dirt Is Good is local, but the philosophy is the same. So the myth of that to scale, to be relevant and you will have to change is something that I have learned along the way, that iconic brands are actually like lighthouses where they take what they stand for and they make it even more deeper, they make it even more focused.

Ridhima Thukral [00:03:23]:

But by no means does it feel like, oh, this is a brand which is invented in London and it's being, you know, executed in Brazil or India. In fact, when I speak to users in Brazil or in India, they believe that it's their local brand. They don't know that it is a multinational brand. And that is truly the joy of, you know, building brands that are powerful, and that's how you make them iconic. And there's something wonderful about that.

Steve Phillips [00:03:48]:

And we were talking before, I would say, about Dove as well, that it's a human truth. Not a French truth or a Cuban truth or a Saudi truth, but a genuine human truth that works all over. And we. We are, you know, we're sort of herd animals. There is something that we all share.

Is there—was there anything that you understood about the process of coming to that, that really beautiful core insight? And there must have been difficulties, because some people will have said, oh, yeah, but let's localize it even more. And how do you—how do you keep the brand focused on that one core human truth?

Ridhima Thukral [00:04:23]:

It's an amazing question, and it's great that you're calling it human truth, because in Unilever, we call it human truth, we call it insight. And I mean, it's amazing to think of it as that rather than something that you've just chanced upon.

And it's only true for one person. But Dove is a great example. Again, it's a brand that I've had the, you know, unique opportunity of working on, but it's also a brand that I love as a user and I love as a consumer, because the human truth— and, you know, one of my mentors once told me, it's about asking why, why, why? It's not about data and it's not about Excel sheets, and there it is about that.

It is about going and figuring out what are people doing, where are they shopping in today's time, what are they sharing? But it's truly about understanding the core motivation behind it. So since you mentioned Dove, the core motivation or the core brand belief is— and it's so true. I mean, it's very true for women, I think, which is that, you know, and again, this is more than 20 years old.

They recently won a Cannes for consistency where, you know, irrespective of where you are, how old you are, women are told that they're not beautiful enough. So many women believe that they're not beautiful enough when they look in the mirror. They see flaws when they—and these—recently Dove did something on AI, where we are fixing things artificially and so on.

So it's truly about finding out the why and finding out the unique truth about it. So real beauty, again, I'll use the example that in the US—and Dove also runs a program where we go to young girls and we talk to them about confidence and we talk to them about who they are beyond what their face looks like. But real beauty is as relevant in the US where, you know, you have all the freedom as women as it is in some of the countries where, you know, the Western view of freedom might not exist. But it's true. If you talk to a woman who is a billionaire and you ask her about her beauty, it will be as true to—

If you talk to somebody who's probably, probably living on the streets in, let's say, a poor country in Africa because—and it's not easy. It's a discipline. It's, you know, I like to think of it as, do I relate to it?

And would people that I've met along the way, would they relate to it? Is there authenticity to it? Or am I making it up because it fits my view of the world? And finally, the torture test for me is really saying that, do I see this BIC being executed in hundreds of touch points in hundreds of social posts over 10, 20 year on, rather than saying, you know, the human truth is that say the opposite of real beauty, which is also true, which is clean girl aesthetic. That's not a human truth.

That is a trend. It's a very relevant trend. Dove must play and must address that trend. But that's true for today. That's true for a certain part of the world, and the world will move on.

So that's how I see the difference between deep human truth and a trend. Both are important, but one is short term, one is a moment, and the other, I'm making it up as I go, is a movement which is, you know, you build it and it stays for a long time.

Steve Phillips [00:08:11]:

They're great examples. And I think one of the things that we'll talk about is what's happening in marketing now around personalization and the power of AI to intensely personalize messaging. And those two things in some sense seem to be opposed to each other.

So I'm a huge fan of AI. We use it all the time and developing products around it. And the ability to personalize a message is there in a way that it's never been before. However, when you have brands like Dove or Dig, you're not talking to the personal, you're talking to the humanity. You're talking about something that connects us rather than separates us, which in some ways personalization does.

How do you as a marketer now manage between those two sort of opposing forces?

Ridhima Thukral [00:08:53]:

I think it's a very interesting take. So first I'll talk about personalization and how, you know, give you an example of how we personalize in Dirt Is Good because we are iconic brands. And, you know, you can take brands like Dirt is Good. I can talk about brands like McDonald's for example, who are iconic brands and they personalize.

So when we execute and market we do as much performance marketing, we have as many segments and you know, I remember we did this pains pain points study in Dirt is Good where not only were the pain points across countries different, even within countries, you know, there were regions or there were consumer groups who, who did not want body odor stains or somewhere else they wanted easy ironing. And we personalize our messaging to those consumer cohorts. We are, in Unilever, extremely disciplined about our data and we use data for performance marketing and that's the discipline. And by no means am I saying that personalization is not important.

Having said that, and this I say more as a consumer first, is that sometimes personalization, especially in the times of AI, can get creepy, which is, you know, that day I was on TikTok and it's a few months ago and like many of non Gen Z people I was trying to figure out what is 67 because it was all over the place and I was like where did it even start from?

So I was searching for 6, 7 and suddenly my TikTok, you have to.

Steve Phillips [00:10:23]:

Tell me what is 6, 7.

Ridhima Thukral [00:10:25]:

So 6, 7 is, I mean all Gen Z are going to be like please don't talk about it because it's, it's a song, it's a trend which became really big on Gen Z and it was a song which then is now used in any and every context. And unless you're Gen Z or Gen Alpha, I don't try to be relevant and try to use it. But I was quite curious on where did this come from?

Why is everyone talking about six, seven? But I, like I'm saying now I'm even struggling to explain it to you because I don't want to, you know, talk about something which is not my culture. TikTok decided that I'm Gen Z and because I was looking for 6, 7 and I was swiping on 6, 7 and I started to see all these really young cool kids on my TikTok which is, it's personalization.

But it's also personalization, which is in the times of AI, which is an algorithm has decided this and the algorithm has not figured out that I'm somebody who's curious about it and I'm not doing this, which sometimes feels creepy. So I think this is where for me, this is a very interesting time because we can automate and we can delegate some of our tasks to AI and algorithms are more amazing than ever before.

But personalization shouldn't feel creepy. It shouldn't be that, oh, you were looking for this brand and I'm now going to consistently come after you and say that, oh, you know, you have acne and you look for acne. Now three months later, I'm going to continue to talk to you about acne. So that balance is where I think humans will come in and going back to insight will come in where. Let's personalize.

People love personalization. They want to see ads which are addressing what's relevant to them, but let's not cross the boundaries and let's not use, for example, their travel data or their travel searches to talk to them about, you know, something completely not relevant to them. So.

Steve Phillips [00:12:14]:

And there's something about personalization which is personalizing, taking content, which. And making sure that content is relevant to you, but the content is not personalized, which, which strikes me as one type of personalization. The other type is actually personalizing the content itself. Do you think the personalized content... One of my concerns about personalized content is the more personalized it becomes, the less shareable it becomes. Because if it's just about me, about Steve Phillips, then I'm not going to share it with my friends down the pub because it's about me. Whereas if it's about a subject that we all engage in and that we're all interested in, then it's much more shareable content.

So there does feel like a danger with personalization that it can go not just creepy too far, but too far on the individual and not enough around a community to herd.

Ridhima Thukral [00:13:10]:

I think like most things, I would say the answer here is a bit of both because I think, and it goes back to consumer intimacy. When I had—I'll first tell you my philosophy and then I'll come back to the answer, which is when I joined Unilever and we still have that, I was told that you have to spend hundred hours with consumers before you can say anything or give your opinion in a meeting. And this used to be, we used to call it the consumer passport, which we later evolved as digital came in.

We said you have to see the content that your consumers are seeing. At that time we used to see it on YouTube. You have to go and shop with the consumers. So I have that discipline in me and I tell my teams to continue to have that discipline irrespective of where you are. I've taken my R&D and supply chain teams to talk to consumers with me and I think once you have that consumer intimacy, you will be able to say whether this is personalized content.

Steve Phillips, you have this kind of hair type, you have this kind of skin type. When you come on our website, we are going to give you a product that's designed for you, which, which will be exciting for you because you might go and tell your friend that I've, I've seen this product. It's completely designed for me. People are now doing personalized fragrances, people are doing personalized creams, personalized, you know, dermatologist recommended products, etc. And they are just as shareable versus there could be communities.

So we have a brand called Shea Moisture which I worked on for a little while. It's fairly popular in the U.S. it comes from the African ways of working on hair—that is a community. So when you talk to the African American community and you say that we're talking about Shea Moisture or Shea Butter, which is our trend, you know, non black people or non curly haired people also use it. But the idea is that it's about one community and being respectful to that community. So I think it all again comes down to where you went back, which is the human truth, but also understanding your users and being relevant to them.

Because if you are relevant to them, if you're talking to them in a way that makes sense, they will share it, they will talk about it, or they will like you versus if you're—and. And that I do worry that we face that risk because creating content now is easier than ever before. You know, you just write a prompt and you can create content. The data is democratized better than ever before. So the downside of it is that we go hyper personal, we go hyper—you know, it's just for you. Which by the way, in my experience also doesn't make commercial sense because we are not making products for one person, at least in mass consumer businesses. So that's what I would say. I would, you know, my mantra is know your users and then you'll be all right.

Steve Phillips [00:15:56]:

That's brilliant. It takes me on to the next subject I wanted to cover. So which consumer insight discovery method actually works when you're trying to understand consumer preferences across 190 different markets? So how do you genuinely get underneath the skin of people across, across the world and make that work at a, at a macro level as well as a micro level?

Ridhima Thukral [00:16:17]:

That's such a great question, Steve, because very often when you know, I have people who are new to marketing or who don't work in marketing, it's very easy to say that knowing your users is about, you know, it takes 30 minutes, you sit down in a presentation and somebody tells you that this is the consumer insight. I see you laughing because you're in the business of insight.

So I think it's a discipline. So first of all it's a science. It's about—so I would break it down in the way we do it in Unilever, which is we first of all have partnerships where we have people who trend watch and who will come, come especially in beauty and who would tell us what are the long term trends that they see coming up? Which are the bigger trends of let's say skincare going into makeup or makeup going into skincare.

So which are the macro trends that they see which will manifest themselves in. Sometimes I remember, oh, I saw this in a trend presentation eight years ago. So they are genuine long term trends which you see them coming up slowly. There are the short term moments which is what are people searching for, what's trending on TikTok, et cetera. So I'll put the long term and short term trends, which by the way is also a science.

It's not that, oh, I went on TikTok Creator center and I saw this trend and I executed. It's a science. The second thing is what when I started marketing we used to call ethnographic or actual, you know, shop alongs going and seeing people's houses. I'm, I'm quite, I say don't be creepy. But I'm quite creepy that way, that when I'm visiting a consumer, I'll be like, can I see your cosmetic cabinet, please?

And, you know, things like that, which is truly understanding where they are. Like my 6, 7 example, where are they searching for it, where did it come from? So the what, the direction of travel, the where, what, you know, where are consumers shopping, where are they keeping it, where are they using it, and so on. Where are they talking about it? And then the why.

So which is about—like we said, the first two things are data. The third thing is insight, which is when you know all of these things, when you have done your hundred hours, when you've done looking at several Excel sheets and several discussions and presentations, then you start to think about the why and you start to come to think about the insights, and that's why. The insights is a whole function. I'm, I'm not an insight expert, but I try to make sure that we understand that it's not something that can just come up.

It's not serendipity, but it's an, it's a science. And then there is a little bit of an art on top of it, which is that when you see, let's say, 20 trends, 20 opportunities, which one do you think is the right one for your brand? How do you execute there? So that part, I would say is the part where creativity and art comes in. But it's, you know, spend your times, look at the data, know your data and then think that you know the insights is what I would say.

Steve Phillips [00:19:31]:

Yeah. Not a lot of people don't know this, but I used to be a qualitative researcher and did a lot of ethnography and a huge fan of it. And it, it feels to me like it's the best way of getting a genuine empathy.

Ridhima Thukral [00:19:46]:

Yes.

Steve Phillips [00:19:48]:

No, no number, no number in an Excel sheet is going to give you genuine empathy for a consumer and how they think and feel and shop and work and play and all that sort of stuff. So it's a wonderful way of really getting underneath and getting to know people, but doing that across 190 countries is incredibly hard, right?

Ridhima Thukral [00:20:09]:

It is, but that's the thing. I wouldn't say I've worked on Dirt is Good, I've worked on Dove, which are large brands, but it's not about going to 190 countries and, you know, understanding every user. I've, I've not had the chance to do that. But I am, I'm, I'm like, I love doing qualitative research.

And I have immense respect, respect for qualitative researchers that I know because. And again, I've learned this from great mentors and, you know, good qualitative researchers who've told me this, which is when I started off as a junior brand manager, I would take my concept and I would go and say to—I went to this woman in India and I was like, use twice a day and you will get twice the results. And this is somebody who was, you know, just using the basic sachet and she was like, listen, don't tell me how to use my cream. And so… But the true thing, and this is something that, and based on this, I was, I think I was a young person completely out of my comfort zone, I was like, crap, I'm never going to make it as a marketer. Because this is, you know, she doesn't like my concept.

But then this is something that a qualitative researcher told me, which was, don't ask them, do you like my concept? Don't ask them, which cream do you use? Ask them, what makes you feel glamorous? Who do you admire the most? You know what, when you see this, what does it remind you of? So we go to—and now that's a whole discipline in marketing, which is system one thinking and, you know, so on. Which is about again, going back to the human truth and understanding the why you're trying to understand the human being and you have to be genuinely curious about it.

Which you as a qualitative marketeer know, that I've spent—like, I remember that I was doing a research in Indonesia and before I could get a real true answer from the consumer, because it was also through a translator, it took me three hours. We had, you know, before she told me something which was a genuine human need. Until then she was talking about cream. She was talking about, oh, I go out and I do this. So you need to have the patience, you need to have genuine curiosity.

And then comes the critical thinking and common sense on is this truly applicable to the world or is this only true for this consumer and this context? So that comes with experience and with rigor, but it starts with genuine curiosity and empathy.

Steve Phillips [00:22:54]:

That's brilliantly put. I completely agree. And I think, you know, if I think back on my career and the types of qualitative research we were doing 10, 20 years ago, it was a lot of that in-depth, ethnographic, trying to understand people's stories, being very curious about them in a world where we have great technology, we have AI, we have much more automation.

How do we make sure that AI amplifies that brilliant insight rather than overcomes it or takes away from it? How do we make sure AI is part of making our brand even more successful in the future?

Ridhima Thukral [00:23:34]:

I think it's more about—and I'm just thinking because we are all learning AI, so I really genuinely think and we'll see where the world goes. But for me, AI will actually make humans more relevant rather than less.

And this could be wishful thinking, but this has been my experience so far. So about two years ago we were running a workshop for a new white space opportunity in hair. And what we decided at that time—we weren't completely, oh, these are the tools, et cetera, so we decided that we are going to run a pilot where we are going to do the research like we do. We had qualitative agencies, quantitative agencies, we had experts, ethnographic experts, semiotic experts.

So we had the whole rigor going on. And in parallel, together with our insights team, we said that we are going to get this agency who can do social listening and use AI to give us insights. We ran the whole research, we ran a two day workshop, we came up with insights and then at the end of the day, none of us had seen the research report, including the insights team. At the end of the day we looked at the research report and scarily 80% of what we had come up with AI had come up with. But why I think it would make humans even more relevant is because the 20% that the AI had not come up with was where the true meat of the things was.

And that 20% was about us listening to—and this was listening to hairdressers in the U.S. and you know, head. It wasn't about, oh, tell me about hairstyles, it was about tell me the pains of your clients. And when you're talking about that, and with good qual researchers, you can really bring the emotions out. So it was about taking those emotions and deciphering them to come up with an insight which is not straightforward, but it's a true deep insight. So for me it's about starting with what do you already know?

What can AI—And AI is going to democratize data. So people like Unilever who have large research budgets versus somebody just starting off now in a way are on a level playing field because we have almost the equal amount of data. But then it's the humans who come in and who say that what is AI missing? Because I'm not an expert, but AI is doing pattern recognition. AI can't look at the soul of the matter. AI cannot look at—can tell you the why at a surface level, but it's not the fifth why that AI can tell you yet.

And that's where I am now looking back and I'm thinking that we now start with the AI output. So we have kind of shortcut the 80% and then we spend much more time on that 20% and crafting it and making it truly differentiated because we have to, because everyone has the 80%. It's not about throwing money at it and getting that. So I'm very excited about the future and it's not about how do we compete with AI, but it's about how do we be more human, more creative, more insightful so that we can use AI to amplify.

Steve Phillips [00:26:41]:

Brilliant. Thank you, thank you. That was really well put. Okay, now let's move on to our lightning round. So I'm going to ask you a few quick, quick-hitting customer insights related questions. So firstly, what wins? Consistency or following trends?

Ridhima Thukral [00:27:00]:

Hmm, not a very tough one. Consistency. It is consistency all the way through. I can think of any brand that I love has always been consistent but consistently addressing trends, which is I am Dove, I believe in real beauty and here I'm going to do a cookie crumble variant in a way which is very Dove.

So we are doing trends but we are not just, you know, going and crazily following trends. So consistency is the big differentiator.

Steve Phillips [00:27:29]:

Brilliant. Next. What do you think is the most overrated trend in marketing though?

Ridhima Thukral [00:27:34]:

Hmm, I'm trying to think and I think—and it goes back to something that you were saying before which was about performance marketing versus, you know, being a consistent brand. I think the most overrated question that I receive from people is should we go for performance or should we go for brand building? And we often silo the two spends even in marketing. So I think the most overrated trend is performance marketing without being true to the brand. I have seen this and we've talked a lot about Dirt is Good.

One of the campaigns that we were executing, we actually used the brand thought for performance marketing and it was end to end and we actually saw our ROAS improve. We actually saw the CACs go down. So in my limited experience, if you break the silo between brand building and performance marketing and treat it as one team, one, and in large organizations there are different teams sitting in different locations. But if we can break that silo, we actually get better returns both on brand as well as short term results.

Steve Phillips [00:28:36]:

Great piece of advice and the corollary of that—sorry, the opposite of that. Let's go for the most underrated trend in marketing.

Ridhima Thukral [00:28:45]:

I think the most underrated trend is actually stepping back, taking a deep breath, and it sounds very off trend because we are completely—it's like AI can do X number of campaigns and we can create this much content and we have to. But I really, truly think—and we are doing that a lot as Unilever now, where we are taking a step back and we are saying, this is what our brand world means, this is how it's going to be relevant. Because if you are going to go from one piece of content, let's say in a week, to 20 pieces of content in a day, which we have to do, I think it's about truly understanding your users, truly understanding your brand, creating those brand books or brand words which are more relevant than ever before because creators are going to use that. So I would say that it's the pause that is underrated and that is something that can truly unlock the power of whether you're a new brand or you're a big brand.

Steve Phillips [00:29:44]:

I love that. I'm now Chief Innovation Officer and, and I think about innovation and the process of innovation a lot. And I don't think anyone has ever had a great innovation idea sitting at their desk in front of a computer. You have to get away, you have to go for a walk, you have to spend some time somewhere else and then—

Great idea, great idea, I'll try it. So next, will AI take over the job of marketing?

Ridhima Thukral [00:30:10]:

It will. If you're a bad marketer, it will.

And that's why it excites me, because I always want to feel that I am personally better than I was yesterday. And I truly think that AI has taken away the repetitive, the boring, the mediocre. So we all need to step up and hopefully we go back to the Mad Men era of marketing where, you know, the true great work starts to shine because it's going to be a lot of content, a lot of mediocre, a lot of, you know, people following the same trends. And you're seeing the Ghibli kind of artwork from all brands which are not memorable. So I truly think that marketeers who do not evolve are going to die.

I'm hoping that most of our community will evolve and I'm seeing that our community evolve. So I think we'll be better off.

Steve Phillips [00:31:03]:

Brilliant. And the final one. So outside of Unilever, you've got to work on some of the world's great brands, right? You've had an amazing time. Outside of Unilever, what other brands, global brands, do you look at and admire? And why?

Ridhima Thukral [00:31:20]:

Oh, it's like asking me to choose, like, who's my—I don't have kids, but who's my favorite kid? It's a great question. I think I'll give you two examples. One of a brand that I personally love as a consumer, which is Patagonia. I've read the book. I think it's a brand which is not the typical brand which is going aggressive on performance marketing.

In fact, it is the antithesis of what we as marketers think of brands in terms of Buy More and fast fashion, etc. But they have truly taken what they stand for to the end. Where I had a jacket which was, I think, eight or nine years old, I thought I'm going to throw it away because it was tattering. But somebody told me, send it back to them. And they fixed it and sent it back to me.

And it's—as a consumer, I'm completely converted because I, you know, that truly is quality. I'm going to pay the premium for it. So I think going back to what I was saying and what we were discussing about being staying true to who you are, I'm sure they make money. I'm sure they, you know, are commercially very successful, but they've not followed trends and they've not, you know, gone behind, oh, let's make this latest color in jackets.

And that's not how they get commercial success. The other side of it, which is, you know, not somebody who's following trends, but somebody, somebody who's super local in a sense, which is M&S, which I think is such an underrated brand, if I may say, because we as marketeers don't talk about it. But I really think that M&S has had this complete revamp over the past few years, especially the food spot, where it's not just food. I, I think that's what their line is, which is a line which again is human truth. It's solving a commercial problem, which was that M&S was probably seen as somebody who was quite expensive.

So they said it's not just food their product delivers. The local M&S next to us shut down for renovation and they recently reopened and it was packed—like, people were queuing up to go into M&S. And it is expensive. But the thing is that they've taken their quality and they've given it a line, given it a brand truth which can be executed in store. It can be executed in product. I'm sure their innovations, whether that was the Wimbledon sandwich, I don't know if you saw it across in the U.S., so it's truly something that is powerful that they execute and it's based on something which is very local.

So it doesn't mean that you can't be consistent if you are a very local British brand. So I take a lot of inspiration from them on being true and local, and I absolutely love what they've done with the brand as well as with the product.

Steve Phillips [00:33:42]:

Brilliant. Thank you. This has been such an interesting interview. I think the challenges that you faced managing some of these brilliant brands and the insights that you've gained have been really, I suspect, very helpful for a lot of people. So I really want to thank you.

Thank you, Ridhima Thukral, Global Brand Director at Unilever, for joining us. If you'd like to contact Ridhima, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile on our show notes or at InsideInsightsPod.com or you can visit her company website at Unilever.com. If you haven't subscribed yet and want a regular stream of research and insights knowledge into your podcast feed, hit that subscribe button in your podcast app or follow us on YouTube. Okay, that's all for today, but until next time, thank you very much for joining.