Building innovation around changing consumer needs and norms

The preview

Marketing plans around what consumers say; insights knows it's not enough.

Mariline Alsuar-Dean, Global Consumer Insights Director for Sexual Wellbeing and Female Hair Removal at Reckitt, turns cultural shifts into products, packaging and messaging, and has identified £450M in growth opportunities along the way. She shares how to segment by values and mindset, not just demographics, so product teams and comms teams build for the same person. She also shows how a simple highlighter test exposed one word, "desensitizing," that quietly sank a product pitch, and why humans must teach AI the emotional side of consumers before it guides your strategy.

The interview

The transcript

[01:26] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: Well, thank you for having me.

[01:28] Steve Phillips: So let’s talk about. Let’s pile straight into some of these more difficult conversations. Sexual wellbeing is one of the hardest categories to research because you can’t rely precisely on what people say. What do the stated reasons so often mislead, and what does that mean for how you approach your work?

[01:48] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: Well, unfortunately, as you know, there is still a lot of stigma associated with the topic of sex. And because of that, the majority of people do not feel comfortable talking about sex, but also the potential limitation of their sex life. So the first thing that we need to do is create a safe environment for them to be able to open up about their wants and, and their needs. But we can’t stop there, because if we only go with what people are telling us, we’re not fully understanding the motivations behind what they do. Because the reality is sex is a very emotional activity, and people are not always able to articulate why they do what they do. So it’s very important for us to find ways to go beyond what they tell us and really get to how they feel and why those emotions are getting them to act in a certain way. I think to fully understand what people want, you also need to understand the environment in which they have been brought up because culture is shaping our views when it comes to sexual. And ultimately because it’s shaping our attitudes, it’s also in the end, influencing our behaviors. So having this understanding of culture and how society is impacting people’s behaviors is really critical, especially because it will also help us understand why there are certain similarities, but also differences across countries. So in order to really understand consumers in this category, you need to create a safe environment for them to open up, but then you need to use different techniques in order to go beyond what they’re telling us.

[03:49] Steve Phillips: Yeah, and that makes perfect sense. I know. Also having done a lot of research in financial services, money is another classic subject that people find very difficult to talk openly and honestly about. So when dealing with sex and money, those types of subjects, what do you do to make people feel comfortable? How do you know that you’re extracting the truth and not just either the bravado or the image that they want to project about themselves?

[04:25] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So there are different ways to go about it. So first you need to create a safe environment for them to be able to share their experience. And here you can use different technique and different methodologies in order to get there. So for instance, when you are using an online survey, you are giving people full anonymity, which in turn is going to help them feel a bit more at ease talking about their needs and their want. But you also need to make sure that you design your questionnaire in a way where you give people the ability to give a deep, different answer to the one that you were expecting to see. So it’s very important to always give them the option to answer something else, to always have some flexibility in the set of questions that you use and make sure that your questions are as inclusive as they could be. I think you can also use different data sources in order to send check what’s different people are telling you. And on sexual well being, we are a massive fan of search, social and review data because it’s an amazing way to understand what truly matters to consumers and what they really think. So that’s another way to really get to these consumer truths. And then it’s about digging deeper and really getting into the why and the emotions. And that’s where different technique can be used. And as mentioned, it’s often also not just relying on what people are telling you, but really stepping back and looking at this broader picture, this broader macro environment that is also going to influence their attitudes and behaviors.

[06:29] Steve Phillips: That’s brilliant. So you’re pulling in multiple data sources, you’ve spent A lot of time thinking about how you ask those questions, but also getting in data from other areas, whether it’s search or Reddit or those types of communities, you’re also looking to design products and services for subgroups. So how do you align those data streams? How do you work out what is the, what are the core, what and where are the core insights coming from that you can use with your product teams, with your communications teams to make sure you get to the right sort of products and services?

[07:11] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So I think there is value in looking at what the general population want because at the end of the day all brands are trying to reach as many people as possible. However, we need to go beyond that because only having a gen pop view comes with limitations because you are averaging out a lot of diverging needs, diverging wants, diverging opinions. So once you understand what the majority wants, you need to then deep dive into your audiences of interest and understanding where there are similarities, but also where there are differences. And that’s super important because that will help you adapt your messaging when it comes to launching your product and making sure that you are highlighting the right features to the right audience. What often companies do is start by segmenting their total audience by demographic. And I think there is some use in this. As you can imagine, when it comes to sex, men do not necessarily want the same thing as women. Depending on your level of experience as well, your needs and wants are going to be different. But where I think you get more value from a segmentation, it’s when you start segmenting your audience by, by values and mindset. Because the reality is people who share different perspectives on life, who share different, the same type of mindset are probably the one that have the most in common and therefore it’s easier to design product that will meet their needs.

[09:10] Steve Phillips: That’s really interesting. I had assumed you were designing products more around behaviors and communications more around mindset, but you’re doing both on mindset, is that right?

[09:23] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So we are actually looking at different ways to define our sub audiences and making sure that we deliver against their needs. So it’s true that people have different expectations depending on their gender, their experience, but they also have different expectations depending on their values and their views on sex. So it’s not one or the other. You really look at the combination of both because at the end of the day what you’re trying to do is fully delight your consumers. And consumers are very complex beings. So if I take Mia as an example, I’m a woman who. But I’m also a Firm believer in pleasure, equality, being gender. I’m also quite open minded and all of that means that when it comes to my needs, those are a bit different compared to other women who might have a different mindset. So I think it’s understanding that consumers are multifaceted and that in order to fully deliver against their needs, you need to deliver against all those different aspect of who they are.

[10:40] Steve Phillips: And there must be, I mean obviously you’re a very global brand. Trying, trying to understand that in some. Trying to understand the, the variety of mindsets in some cultures is going to be harder than others. How do you, how do you manage that process. Process at a global level.

[10:56] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So for first you need to look at what’s common because you need to design a proposition that is going to work globally. And we are quite lucky in this category because sex is a universal behavior and at the end of the day we all think about it and want to do it and have similar expectations, similar frustrations. So we are looking in this sense that they are living lots of commonalities across countries. However, there are also differences and that’s because culture is influencing your needs and your wants and your views. So having this understanding of where there are differences and why there are differences is super important. It doesn’t mean that your proposition is going to change. What it means though is that you are potentially going to position it in a different way. You’re not going to flex so much the product proposition, but maybe the communication that comes with it or the type of features you decide to highlight. What I would say as well is that it’s not just about customizing what you offer by countries. It’s also thinking about how your consumers needs are consistently evolving. One of the challenges and beauty of working in this category is that people’s attitudes towards sex and sexual behaviors are consistently changing. And that’s because this space is consistently disrupted by changes that happen in the macroeconomic environment, in the politic realms, in culture, in technology. We keep talking about how Genai is transforming the way we do research but. But we do not always think about how Genai is also completely revolutionizing the way people are having sex. Think about how now some Gen Zs are actually reaching out to virtual companions in order to be able to communicate their needs and their wants and their frustration. Think about the latest sex toys that are now coming in with Genai features in order to make sure that you can pace the music that you use to set the mood with the type of stimulation that you’re getting. So it’s something that you need to bear in mind when you work in this space and also any other space that the needs of your consumers today might not be the same needs tomorrow. And you need to keep up with that.

[13:45] Steve Phillips: Yeah, that’s fascinating. And we’ve talked before about the importance of language. And this is a category. It’s a hard category for people to talk about. It’s hard for them necessarily to express themselves particularly well. I was going to say particularly to someone they don’t know. As a market researcher, quite often in this case person they do know very well, it’s still difficult for people to express their needs. How do you think about language and uncovering the importance of language and the power of language in your category?

[14:18] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: I think you would actually be surprised at how much people share once they they are comfortable. And I’ve been late to many meetings because my interviewer view didn’t want to leave the call because they wanted to tell me even more about their sex life. And I think it’s just a symptom of the fact that sex is such an important part of our life and yet we have so few opportunities to share what we want. But to your point, I think using the right language is critical because framing your conversation in the right way is the first step to influence attitude and ultimately to be able to influence a change in behaviors. I always give the example of the construct of losing your virginity. It’s quite common across most countries to refer to your first time as the time when you lost your virginity. And this construct is problematic and harmful because it signals to all our first timers out there that whenever they’re going to decide to engage in sex for the first time, they’re going to lose something, which is ridiculous because if anything, you’re gaining experience, you’re gaining an insight into what this type of activities can deliver for your overall well being. So it’s very important for brands to think about the language they use and the impact that those words can have with their consumers. And that’s, in my mind, one of the areas where a lot of brands are not doing enough and should potentially study a bit more the tone of voice and language they use in order to make sure that they’ve got the intended impact on people’s views and people’s behavior.

[16:26] Steve Phillips: And when you’re talking about designing specific products and packaging and the words on that, how have you come to undercover the most powerful ways of communicating what you want?

[16:37] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So I think the first thing that you need to think about is whether consumers are able to vocalize what they want to see and what they want you to tell them. And we had this really nice example recently when we tested a new product ID for men in order to help them last longer. And when we looked at the result, we realized that there was something in this idea because men were fairly positive about the new product ID that they had been exposed to, but we hadn’t quite cracked how to position it because there was room to make it even more compelling for them. So we looked at the open ends, as you said, looking at what? What is it that wasn’t quite right and needed to be improved on and couldn’t really see anything. But then when we looked at the highlighter exercise, we realized that there was one word in particular that men kept highlighting as something they didn’t quite like. And this word was desensitizing, which makes sense because when you use this word, even though it explains technically how the product deliver this benefit of lasting longer, you are also stating to consumers that they’re going to lose a bit of sensation which no one wants during sex. So I think it’s a nice illustration of how sometimes consumers are not able to vocalize and verbalize what is it that they want or what is it that they don’t want. So that’s where those different techniques are really helpful, to get to what people want without them having to necessarily say what they want.

[18:39] Steve Phillips: That’s brilliant. And let’s move on to thinking about AI, because one of the things that AI is very good at is looking across information sources and looking at a lot of information. And as we’ve talked about, suddenly you’ve had this enormous wealth of information from the likes of Reddit, but also search data and other forms of social data that you gather a huge amount of. But you’re also aligning with more traditional sources of data. You’ve got, of course, sales data, which helps you triangulate the reality of the consumption behavior. You’ve also got the survey data. How do you think about those data streams? Is it AI? Is AI playing the role of the sort of the alignment engine around them? How do you work across what can be potentially contradictory streams of information?

[19:37] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: We have a bit of a love hate relationship when it comes to gen in this category. I think Geni is extremely helpful when it comes to managing huge amount of data. And you’ve heard me before talking about how in this space we love search, social and review data because those type of data can tell you an awful amount about what people want and what they also might be frustrated with when it comes to their sex life. However, we need to also acknowledge that Genai has some limitations. Genai is going to play back all the bias that exists within the data sources that it’s deciphering. And unfortunately, in my category, there is a lot of misinformation that exists out there, a lot of stigmas that need to be tackled. And unfortunately, the AI engine is not able to to tell what’s true, what’s not, and is not aware of its own bias. I think the other limitation of the Genai engine is that it tends to also identify the most commonly found patterns. And the reality is, most often than not, the golden insight is going to come from this one individual that has a different perspective on on things versus the rest of the population. And at the moment, Genai is not able to identify this one insight that is going to lead you to breakthrough innovation. But that’s where I think humans come in. Because our role is to train the AI in order to find those amazing insights. We also can train the AI in order to make sure that it uses the right information, the right frame of mind. We also can teach the AI about what makes us human. So one of the challenges that we had when we started working with Genai tools in this category in order to create new product ideas is that the AI didn’t really understand the emotional needs of consumers. It had a very functional understanding of what sex is about. And as you can imagine, sex is, is not just about your functional needs, far from that. So we had to train the AI and teach the AI about sex, how sex is not always rational and how sex is very varied and diverse and complex. And I think it’s a great exercise not just to make sure that you about good output with your Gen tool, but it’s a great exercise as well for the team themselves because then it forces you to rethink your understanding of sex as well and rethink how you approach different concepts.

[23:05] Steve Phillips: That’s fascinating. Let’s move on a little bit to shopping behavior, because I know that your category can be difficult to shop in. Notoriously, people spend a very short amount of time at the shelf. They want to sort of quickly make the decision and move on, which makes the power of packaging, the clarity, the simplicity of the message suddenly incredibly important. But of course, when you have online shopping, then you don’t have any of those problems. So how do you, how do you try and try and communicate everything so well so quickly through the packaging process? And how do you differ between the online and offline behaviors?

[23:51] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So we often Refer to this category as the 3 second category. You’ve got an extremely short amount of time in order to be able to communicate what you need to communicate. And that’s where you need to start leveraging the power of images, because the brain is not able to process words as quickly as images. Not only that, but as you can imagine, within our category, there are lots of restrictions in terms of what you can say, what you can’t say, what you can show and what you can’t show. And that’s where understanding the meaning of symbols, the meaning of color, how those as well differ across countries, is going to give you an advantage versus your competitor, because then you can make sure that you use the right imagery in order to cue the emotion that you’re trying to deliver to your consumers. And I think it’s interesting how a lot of companies tend to underestimate the importance of getting your pack right. The packaging for most categories remain your number one touch point, with consumers far behind, far above your comms and any other touchpoint that you can think of. So it’s really important to get it right. And I think the beauty is that if you have a pack that works in store environment, physical in store environment, which is our ultimate stress test, you know that it’s going to work in an ecom environment. But then when it comes to the online shopping experience, we know that as consumers have a bit more time to review the different options, you need to accompany your product with the relevant information that they’re looking for. And that’s where your ecom content needs to deliver the information that they’re looking for and be consistent with your pack design.

[26:04] Steve Phillips: I think this has been a fabulous conversation, and it makes me think about the challenges you have in your category make you, in my view, a significantly better researcher because you have to think more deeply about language, you have to think more deeply about culture, you have to think more deeply about context than you. Then you can sort of get away with. In other categories that all researchers or everyone trying to understand human beings and their behaviors, we should be thinking deeply about those things, but we can often often just ignore them and press on. I. I’d be interested if you agree with that, but, but I was thinking about in the wider record sense, do you share these, these insights into how you understand human beings, human behavior, human mindsets with the other teams, and does that have an impact on how they do research?

[27:06] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So, absolutely, I think it’s important to really understand deeply your consumers. And in this category, you cannot succeed if you don’t have this deep understanding. And I think the other thing that is required in order to succeed in this space is an open mindset. You consistently need to challenge whether what you think you know is still relevant. And I think to be a great researcher you need to have an open mindset. You consistently need to challenge what you think you know. Because the moment you start relying on your historic understanding of the consumers, that that’s when you lose your edge. And that’s something that I know the other teams at Ricky share. They’ve got the same perspective trying to really understand people as human being and making sure that we don’t just understand their functional requirement when it comes to our product, but also how they expect to feel. And I often talk about how in sexual well being, we’re not designing product, we’re designing experiences. And when you start thinking like that, you understand very quickly that it’s not just about a product, it’s about the educational content that comes with it. It’s about the sensoriality of the overall experience that you’re going to provide consumers when they are using your product. So at I think it’s something that is critical to do a good job and I think it’s even more critical in my category. So I think I’m maybe a bit more acutely aware of how important it is to have this open mindset.

[29:10] Steve Phillips: Brilliant. So as they’ve been saying for all my career, curiosity is at the center of great research. And I think you in your category and your colleagues display that in spades and and use it to really uncover inside by humans, which I think is fabulous. Okay Marilyn, now let’s move on to our lightning round where I’m going to ask you a few quick hitting consumer related questions. Are you ready?

[29:36] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: I am. Bring it on.

[29:42] Steve Phillips: Is AI changing how people have sex faster than it’s changing how you research it?

[29:49] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: Absolutely.

[29:52] Steve Phillips: Okay, excellent. Next up, why are so few brands fully meeting what consumers want from sex Right now?

[30:01] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: It’s something that varies across people with different experiences, different cultures. It’s something that keeps changing and evolving. So it’s actually very difficult to keep track with what people want. But our challenge is to do just that. And you can do it by having this open mindset that I was referring about.

[30:30] Steve Phillips: Great. Next, what would you learn overnight if you could watch your products being used?

[30:37] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: I’m not sure who would be more embarrassed between the consumers using my product or me having to watch them using my products. But from past experiences on other categories, I think it’s important to observe when you can how your consumers use your product because often they are quite creative in how they use the product and they are not using them in the. In how we intended them to use them. And observing those discrepancies is extremely important because it can lead to new product opportunities in order to maybe better meet a need that we hadn’t thought through fully with our existing proposition.

[31:35] Steve Phillips: Brilliant. And what’s one assumption about sexual wellbeing you wish marketers would stop making?

[31:42] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: I would love for marketeers to leave their preconceived notions at the door as they start working on this category. I think we often tend to put limitations on ourselves when it comes to what can and can’t be done. I remember a couple of years ago, we wanted to find some women in Saudi Arabia in order to understand how to close the pleasure gap. And as I started approaching various research agencies in order to do the project, I got negative answers. So research agencies were telling me that nowhere we would be able to do it, consumers wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing their needs and wants when it comes to sex. We persevered, and we managed not only to find women in Saudi Arabia who were willing to talk about their sexual needs, they also agreed to be recorded. And I’m so glad we did it because we got so many great insights on how to close the pleasure gap in this part of the world.

[32:58] Steve Phillips: Brilliant. Brilliant. And before we let you go, Marilyn, we have one last question. We ask all our guests. What’s the one thing that marketing and insight teams need to do together in the next 12 months to help your company win with consumers and grow the business?

[33:15] Mariline Alsuar-Dean: So I think with the rise of LLMs, the way people are getting information about sex is changing, and it’s changing extremely rapidly. So what we need to do in the next few months is really getting up to speed with how the people’s search behaviors are changing and how we need to be prepared for that, because it’s really critical to make sure that whenever people are turning to LLMs to find out a bit more about how to get good sex, they get the relevant information and they get accurate information. And that’s something which at Durex, we are extremely passionate about. So that’s one of our key objectives for the next few months.

[34:04] Steve Phillips: Thank you. That wraps up this episode of Inside Insights. Thanks to listening to our conversation with Marilyn, Global Consumer Insights Director for Intimate Wellness. If you’d like to get in touch with Marilyn, you can find her LinkedIn profile in our show notes or at InsideInsightsPod.com if you haven’t subscribed yet and you want a regular stream of for conversations with some of the world’s leading marketing and insight professionals, hit that subscribe button in your podcast app now or follow us on YouTube. Okay, that’s all for today. See you on the next episode of Inside Insight.