Episode 40

How to approach your category like it's your first day on the job

Jing Mertoglu, VP of Insights & Analytics at Beam Suntory, discusses how to elevate category thinking to include the intersection of humans and culture, shares how her team uses the Japanese concept of Gemba and reveals how to create a high-functioning insights team.

Intro

Ryan Barry: Hi, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, powered by Zappi. My name is Ryan and I am joined as always by my lovely co-host, Patricia Montesdeoca and our producer, Kelsey Sullivan. Ladies, good day to you.

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Good day, Ryan. Good day.

Ryan:

It's a good day. I'm actually flying to East Lansing, Michigan, today.Shout out to Michigan state, go green. You're supposed to say go white ladies. Let's try it.

Patricia:

Go white.

Ryan:

Let's say go green.

Patricia:

Okay. Go green, go white?

Ryan:

Yep. I'll say go green.

Patricia:

You say go green, we say go white?

Ryan:

Yep. Go green.

Patricia:

Go white.

Ryan:

That's it. So I'm involved in their master's in market research program. It's one of three in the country, Wisconsin and Georgia are the other two. I'm obviously biased, I think Michigan State is the best program. And they have a really cool conference tomorrow, and I'm going to be giving a talk to students about how to build their personal brand. And the truth is when I was asked to do that, I had no idea that that was a thing. But then the person who asked me to do it said you have a personal brand. And so I was like, "Shit, I have to codify what that means." And so that's what I'm doing tomorrow. And I'm excited to get there.

Patricia:

That is an amazing thing. Notes to younger self, those are the sort of lessons I would've loved to be able to give to my younger self, that you have a personal brand and that it's important to cultivate it. But many people take a long time, myself included, to figure out what their personal brand is or what their mission is. In a previous podcast we talked about what your mission in life was. Sometimes it's not as easy as all that. So having somebody like you come to the college and speak to them about that, that's brilliant. I love it.

Ryan:

Yeah. I think it'll be fun. It was interesting because I've probably been pretty intentional, but I never really knew it as personal branding. But I'll tell you guys my four things, you ready?

Patricia:

Yes.

Ryan:

And I'd say this to people who I work with all the time, independent of personal branding, you have to be clear what matters to you, what you stand for and what your goals are. If you don't have that written out on a piece of paper, what are you going to expect anybody else to do for you?

Patricia:

Exactly.

Ryan:

Be clear what you stand for, be clear what you don't stand for. Be intentional about how you show up. I'm going to show up in Nike's tomorrow. I'm not worried about that. I bet the rest of the presenters are going to have suits on. That's cool. I'm intentional about that because that's me. 

And the intentionality point, and I think I've said this on the podcast before I remember many, many years ago, my wife coming into my office and being like, "The work version of you sounds like a pushover, dude. That's not how you talk." And ever since then, I've been just me, no matter whether I'm working or not working and I guess that's worked well. The third piece of advice is put yourself out there. Patricia has a phrase for this. Patricia, what's your phrase?

Patricia:

Lady the egg.

Ryan:

She actually is censoring herself. Her phrase is lay the fucking egg.

Patricia:

Because we're trying to be good.

Ryan:

Lay the fucking egg.

Patricia:

We're trying to be good! Ryan:

I know. Yeah, I personally subscribe to the worldview of fortune favors the bold. So it's similar and you want to know what the fourth point is?

Patricia:

What?

Ryan:

Be patient. You ever hear the famous quote from Ray Kroc, the guy who founded McDonald's?

Patricia:

What did he say?

Ryan:

I was an overnight success, but 30 years is a long night. Everybody's looking for silver bullets. There's no substitute for doing the work people. You got to be patient and do the work. I normally swear there, but I didn't. Little censoring happening there. You can all know what I really wanted to say.

Today's episode is going to be fire. Jing Mertoglu is a really, really smart woman who knows a ton about consumer insights, both technically, in practice and how it needs to be consumed at the board level. She's I think a good and candidly rare example of somebody who's risen through the ranks as an insights person who is now transformed into a customer-centric business leader and she's working in a really cool category.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

The premium whiskey category is booming. It's a keepsake category. People really care about it. And Jing, when you're listening to this, my next door neighbor actually brought some of your Japanese whiskey following our fantasy football draft last weekend. It was wonderful. We sat by the fire. My wife was wondering why I was up so late. That's why, because it was delicious. And our interview is-

Patricia:

We should had had some whiskey for this episode in hand. I mean it's 11 o'clock for me. It's close enough to afternoon.

Ryan:

I was going to say it's 12:15 here at the moment. That's early.

Patricia:

It's five o'clock somewhere. It's five o'clock somewhere. What's wrong with you?

Ryan:

That's true. That's true. It is. Fun fact about me, I do enjoy some whiskey, but I only drink it when it's October or later regularly. It's a winter thing for me. In the summer, as many, many people who know me like to make fun of, I like crappy light beer.

Patricia:

Yes, you do.

Ryan:

Unapologetically. I don't need fancy beer. I want Bud Lights, thank you very much.

Patricia:

I drink tequila, preferably mezcal and sangrita. We all have our vices.

Ryan:

Yep. And I'm remembering, we've actually had this conversation because Kelsey said that she's an equal opportunity employer on this topic.

Patricia:

Oh yes.

Ryan:

Very happy with anything.

Patricia:

One of the things I love about Kelsey.

Ryan:

Yep. Kelsey's chill. All right. Enough about us. Should we talk to Jing?

Patricia:

Let's talk to Jing.

Ryan:

Let's talk to Jing.

Patricia:

Let's do it.

[Music transition to interview]

Interview

Ryan Barry:

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the distinct pleasure of introducing Jing Mertuglo. Hi, Jing. How you doing?

Jing Mertuglo:

I'm very well, thank you, Ryan. Always good to chat with you.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's always a pleasure. I appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom with us. So Jing, I want to dive right in. As I was preparing for our conversation, it struck me that you have such a diverse range of category experience, whether it's beauty care, whether it's mass consumption, beer premium alcohol, healthcare. I mean, there's such a distinct range. 

And I'd love for you to reflect for us on some of the things you learned in each of the categories that helped you in future work, but also that we're just different. Because everybody is navigating a career and might be on a similar path to you where they look for different categories. So, I just wanted to start there because I just found that such a diverse array of categories you've worked in.

Jing:

Yeah. I actually think, I don't necessarily look for the categories. I've just been privileged to get really exposed early on in my career with multiple categories through Reckitt Benckiser.

Ryan:

Exactly.

Jing:

But one of the things that I find that they had multiple categories, they had three verticals, food, healthcare, and then there's household. But one of the things I find fascinating is that stems from a lot from my meals and days as well, before I joined Reckitt. When you're a supplier, you actually really get exposed to many, many different categories. And I really enjoyed doing that. And so, I guess that stuck with me until the very end of what I'm doing now. And one of the things I have to say is I always try to make sure that I don't know anything about the category. I always feel like regardless of which category I'm entering in, I don't know enough about it.

I do as a consumer, but I don't know enough about it. And that actually from a mindset standpoint helps me navigate the granularities of the category, the similarities of the other categories I might have done and then watch out for the major differences. Having said that though, I think at the core of it is just looking at it from a consumer point of view. 

I think what are the needs and the challenges that consumers are having in that segment, whether that's in household cleaning, whether that's in health, whether the challenges they're having with the brands where the jobs to be done that need to be delivered by our innovation, depending on which company I'm working for. So, that in itself tends to be very similar Ryan, regardless of categories I enter. So one is mindset. Regardless of category, I have one mindset. Regardless of category, I also assume that there's enough to be learned and understood on consumer and market dynamics.

The other thing is, I think regardless of the category I've operated in the last point, the whole system, one system, two, sensitivity, like the amount of decisions that people make within each of the categories are very varied but at the same time very similar. They utilize system one and system two to navigate complexities of the category and system one plays a huge role as well in terms of making sure that we understand what is the stuff that is done with our eyes closed, brand decision making, category choices. And so, that level of trying to understand what are more gut decisions and what are more thoughtful decisions are really critical as I navigate each of the categories.

Ryan:

Interesting. And I imagine, so you're in a unique category now. It's a premium category. My hypothesis is you're probably finding a blurring of decision making where it's an emotional decision and then it's rationalized by a bunch of attributes. Not saying I've ever bought expensive whiskey and post rationalized it or anything like that. Have you noticed the convergence in some categories more than others?

Jing:

I always said that beauty and alcohol tend to be very similar. You tend to invest a lot in those little treats and luxuries, and then you sometimes end up post rationalizing it or you actually rationalize the purchase at even at point of purchase because it's a treat. You don't need it technically, you want it. And that typically tends to be the deciding factor. So there are similarities. I could say the same of food. I could say the same of some of the health categories. 

And I've operated in the premium and luxury spaces. It is very familiar because I've operated in this area, even within healthcare or even within beauty. There's a lot of verticals that are now really on their premiumization trend. And most of them are present in some shape or form any of the categories. So there's a lot of treating. There's a lot of everyday luxuries. There's a lot more want rather than actual need. And our job is to really deliver on the wants of consumers.

Ryan:

I love it. So I want to unpack the first two things that you shared because I think they're really insightful. So, you talked about... You know a category as a consumer but when you go in, you try to... and if I'm putting words in your mouth, correct me, unlearn anything so that you can learn that vertical. So I guess, say a little bit more about that because it strikes me that must be so hard for you. A person who's gone up the ranks in a discipline of insights, seen a lot of categories. And so you undoubtedly have assertions, but it strikes me that your goal there is to try to learn how that business and that category functions. So it's like a muscle you've built. I guess, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit more Jing.

Jing:

Yeah, it goes back probably to my mindset as well, which is why having multiple categories is so much fun. I'm very curious. I'm trying to figure out what makes people do what they do. I'm trying to figure out why they make certain decisions and not others. It's always been like that. I always ask a lot of questions around, "Why is it like this? Why not this way?" And the opportunity for me, which I find is that I can get bored very fast. So I try to make sure that I get to the nitty gritty before I move onto the next one. So, I want to understand it fully before I move on to the next topic. 

The thing that's interesting for me Ryan, I don't care if I'm a senior manager or manager or Head of Insights of a department. I'm more interested in how does category tick, how the consumers stick in that category? How do consumers and humans and cultures interrelate? I'm very curious about that. I'm very curious about the role of spirits, for example, in society. I'm very curious... Or beauty, the role of beauty in society or health. The more I contextualize it, sometimes it makes me ask more questions. And so, I guess that helps address the... I don't want to get bored so fast. So, going back to the heart of your question, the level should not predicate how you ask the questions. I think it's more your mindset and how you want to understand the category should predicate your actions.

Ryan:

I love it. I had a great conversation last season with Tony Costella. He runs Insights at Heineken. I'm sure Tony, both former record people. And Tony was talking about the need to grip the curiosity of a seven year old. And it was only about a month after I had that discussion with him that I realized how profound that was because societally, we teach people it's not okay to not know the answer, the higher you get up in your career. And I'll be honest with you as we're scaling our business, sometimes I bring in people because they have experience, but I desperately want them to not bring it to the table until they listen. Because every business, every category it's different. And so, your natural curiosity... I love your vulnerability, and it also helps you not get bored. I totally appreciate that.

Because you're not rinsing and repeating your playbook, your first learning, but I believe that's the only way to really understand a business, let alone the category. Because even if you jumped from... I know you were at ABI before this. You could have easily... I mean, you could have gone to some other beer company that ABI doesn't own. I know that there's not many of those left, but it would be just as easy to take a shortcut, but those businesses are run differently on a first principle, let alone the customers are different potentials.

Jing:

Right. I think the best leaders, Ryan, are the ones that actually really maintain that level of humility. There's an extra pressure for Insights people to actually... Yes, we are asked to know the answers and a lot of our Insight folks want to be the one to deliver the answers. But let's talk about the journey to get to the answers, which I think is more critical. How do you get to the answers so that you're not giving tropes, you're not giving anecdotal information, like really go back to not understanding. One of my mentors, he's one of the CEOs now of the big companies. His message to me was very clear like, "Jing, I want you to make sure that you continue to be as new as you were at day one, where you didn't know anything about the category from our perspective." And I think that's a really interesting job to be done by Insights people when they're part of an organization, how do you keep it fresh?

How do you keep it from the consumer perspective and the market perspective rather than the internal language. The more we do it like that, the more we really do our true to the job that we were hired to do, which is the eyes and the ears of the organization outside and not speak the language. The translation to the language has to be with the so what and the now what? That's the translation to the commercial organization, but the work that needs to be done to get there, I believe needs to be kept fresh even as if you're day one.

Ryan:

Oh, I love that. That's a really good piece of advice. I mean, particularly a business that doesn't have as much turnover or... I know a lot of big corporations, people be there for 20 years and it's easy to become Institutionalized. And so you fall into this trap of, "Well, we've always done it this way." I'm sure you can relate to this. How many times have you been in a meeting where somebody goes, "Hey, I think I have a stupid question." And the question isn't stupid actually, it illuminates how little someone actually understands about the word they're using or AI is a good example. You asked 20 people about the definition of AI. They'll give you a different definition. And so, I love that day one framing that you used.

Jing:

I never afraid Ryan to say, I don't know or I don't know enough. There's a terminology that's being used by a lot of people, "I know enough to be dangerous." I don't like that statement. Well, you are dangerous, so I don't like that. 

Ryan:

You don't want dangerous.

Jing:

Yeah. It's better you admit you don't know, because... Yeah, in our industry little knowledge is really scary. You might as well help understand it fully. But also one of the things that... I mean, Insight leaders often are getting asked a lot of questions. And one of the things I do train my people and my teams to work with is separate, which one is a fact and which one is opinion. Because they will rely on you on your experience, but then you would say, "Okay. This one, I know for sure. This one is an opinion."

And then I want you to take that holistically so that when you process your decision making based on my input, you're very clear which one is fact based and which one isn't. I'm probably the first one to say, I will ask a naive question. And I don't care if the naive question is really illuminating or not. It is really naive question. I'd love to understand contextualizing either my query before I can form an opinion. So, naive questions to me are very welcome. I love them. I love them when people are asking them. I love them when people are trying to get a context and I try to do the same.

Ryan:

And I have to say, I've had a few interactions with you over the years and I've always left with this sense of... It's your curiosity's palpable and you're a great listener. And those are two traits in a leader that we need more of. I want to ask you a question. So, you have this natural curiosity. How do you foster an environment of curiosity as a leader? I'd love to get your read on some of the things you might be doing to create the space and in high performing teams you're leading. I have something else I want to ask you linked to it, but I'd love to know how do you actually set up the environment so everybody can play by those rules.

Jing:

Yeah. One of the things it forces people to do it. So, I love doing thought leadership papers where you're not supposed to lift any money on primary research.

The amount of data and the amount of information that's available in this day and age is through the roof. And often, when I give the challenge to multiple teams or single teams or single persons, I would actually get really, really strong understanding and grounding on a topic. And so, that's one of the things we do. We consolidate, we do a lot of meta-analysis that actually really pushes the questions and pushes the answers without having to invest tons and tons of money. It also forces you to ask the right question so that you don't have the wave of the ocean. 

I think the second one is that I really want in Beam Suntory we have a term called gemba. Gemba is the place where value is created. It's Japanese term and we live and breathe it. And the Insights team is actually the engineers of gemba, which means we need to enable the whole organization to have very close contact with consumers and markets around the world.

And we have to enable that both physically and digitally. And one of the things that we are hoping to train the organization, some of them are already doing it is to really get out there, assume nothing, assume zero knowledge, get out there, ask the questions. You're better off convincing the commercial organization of the decision if they hear directly from the horse's mouth. So, get out there, get access to consumers regardless of where they are, get access to them as they enjoy the on-premise or the bars.

But yeah, we love doing that. Just being curious about what's really out there, especially now in this day and age, when people are navigating post-COVID with inflation, with a recession... The third one, which I think forces them to behave in a very curious manner, is to the average. I really want my teams to the average. There's no such thing as averages or average consumer. I want us to work with either understanding of cohorts or tribes, the average behavior, so that we don't make mega conclusions that will end up to be very sort of general and generic. So yeah, the averaging is a good way to really probe on, is that what this cohort thinks or not.

Ryan:

So that average point, just to make sure I understand. So an example could be, I might go on a consumer journey, sit at a bar, understand how people behave and then am I going to be encouraged to quantify the insight of that segment with maybe a bigger base of data, maybe querying some meta afterwards?

Jing:

You could or could start with a quant data and then you start breaking it down specifically into specific segments. So you could start with like, we have a group of... I'll take one project recently, like we have a group of reluctant moderators. They want to moderate, but they're having a difficulty. There are two to three different shades of those. If depending if you're older, if you are a 30 year old, new to the company type of thing. 

So, trying to get our human stories across on these cohorts actually helps a deeper understanding of what drives them psychologically as well as emotionally. So you start with a big cohort perhaps, which is typically the case. And then you start looking at double clicks in the deep dives of each of the segments so that you can really wiggle it down to individual stories. Anyway, data points are made out of human stories, right?

So the more you can be average, the more you can really contextualize the better you are for it. I was part of an advisory board, Ryan and we were talking about recession and the impact of inflation. And I said, at the end of the day, the bifurcation is very real, but I think we should really think more about the top and the low and the middle, and each one where the biggest value is that we can provide this Insights leaders is to really understand the stories that sit within each. Not so much the fact that it's a bifurcated or a split market when it comes to leading with recession.

Ryan:

Yeah. Good point. Particularly in your category, right? That statement does mean three different things and there's opportunity for a business in all three of those segments. It's really huge.

Jing:

Huge. Huge, yeah.

Ryan:

I'm going to the first curveball of our meeting. Let's stay on this recession track. Inflation, recession, you've already done one piece of advice for everybody listening. Don't take that in the abstract, break it into the different segments of your population. What are some other things you'd recommend people do to the extent you can share to grow through a recession, to position a business to be more successful on the other side than it was maybe perhaps before.

Jing:

Yeah, I think there are several thought leadership papers around this space, but one of the things that was very clear was, "You don't pull back during times of recession. You invest and you continue to invest because familiarity with the brand tends to be very strong." I think if you operate in certain categories where it's a treat or a luxury to think about how you can take advantage of the impulse occasions or the moments so that you're there when they need you. I think there's a third pillar for me, which is super important. And it's brought to life by some thought leaders on this space which is, "It's not about income. It's about the money you have." And therefore, it's a very different scenario.

So your income is very different from your amount of money that you can spare and you can utilize to spend. So, you might be the richest person on earth Ryan, but if you have a mortgage out of the Hamptons and mortgage out in wherever…There is not enough to go by and you're still probably very constrained from a cash flow standpoint. So, I think it really depends on spending ability and spending power is not predicated just on income alone. So, there's so many variables around that. Now that sounds pretty blooming obvious, but I think we're missing sometimes driving the human stories on how consumers and people in general will navigate during this crisis.

Ryan:

Links back to something you said at the beginning of our conversation that I was hoping to come back to. It's clearly cultural at Beam Suntory to gemba. Is that the word you said?

Jing:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Gemba. I'm going to steal that from you. I love that. Is it copyright? Am I going to get in trouble if I steal that from you? 

Jing:

Well, but gemba is a Japanese term, so it's not copyright by us.

Ryan:

Okay. Good, good, good. So it's clearly cultural, but one of the things you said was, I'm pretending I don't know the category and I'm going to see the category from the customer's eyes, from the person's eyes. I love that. I want to ask you a question. So, everybody thinks about their category and you started on my side of this table, vendor. I've always been fascinated by category consumption because the same person trying to sell me toothpaste is also trying to sell me salty snacks and a health subscription and a $300 bottle of whiskey and a new car. And so, how do you keep category focus while recognizing that I'm a human who buys in all the categories. In other words, I'm not anybody's category consumer. I'm just a person.

Jing:

I agree.

Ryan:

So how do you navigate that in a business? Because you know what I mean, marketers get stuck on that and it's category consumer. And I just always laugh about that obsession and I get it at the same time, but how do you strike that balance Jing?

Jing:

Yeah. One of the things that I talked about as a very important element for transformation is our obsession around humans and culture. I don't think we should obsess about the category. There are consumers only for five seconds for 10 minutes, if it's a more considered buying or an hour, if it's a more considered buying like a travel vacation or something like that. 

To me, it goes back to where first and foremost, human beings who operate within a society, who operate within markets, who operate against cultural narratives and a cultural backdrop. So, one of the big elements that we're trying to understand is to make sure that we're not too narrow and myopic, too soon, too fast, and pivoting towards the bigger picture is actually going to be beneficial, especially in the categories I've been operating in. Healthcare in the context of lifespan and human in survival. And out there in the context of society in its role. A lot of that has to be contextualized at the more macro level, rather than just zooming into the category. There's enough effort and energy as you say Ryan, to understand the category, but at the end of the day, a big pillar for transformation is understanding humans and cultures.

I think you don't just say that, you have to invest in that. You have to invest in emergent codes and myopic codes of what are the dominant codes, you have to invest in the meanings of the demand spaces, not just the demand spaces. So there's a lot of opportunity to not think category, but to think about needs and wants at the highest levels.

Ryan:

I love it, Jing. And I had a previous episode, the episode before you with Mark Ritson, and we were talking about market orientation as the thing marketers just get wrong. And they're like, "You just focus on your category and that sort of it." And what I loved about what you said was, "Not get to myopic too quickly," because that assumes what you're saying there is actually listen to understand your opportunity to then focus on it. I think that's what you meant, at least was my takeaway.

Jing:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Absolutely. It just makes your opportunity identification sharper, right? What is the real job to be done that's being asked for by consumers? I'll give you an example. When we were looking at, when I used to work in healthcare, we were looking at the pain category, the pain killer category. If you look at the analgesic side of the category, it's big. I don't know. I don't know what the numbers are. A billion, 2 billion more.

Ryan:

Wow.

Jing:

When you look at the total pain relief category, regardless of whether it's a drug or you include massagers, you include spa's, you include everything and anything, then that's close to trillion. So, we have to be cognizant that the jobs to be done is it sounds very pedantic and given, but I sometimes feel we missed that. What is the real job to be done? Not the category job to be done.

What is the real job to be done the consumers are looking for? And the more be obsessed about that, which tends to be outside of the category, the more we can really present opportunities or talk about our brands in our categories a very relevant way. So, exactly what Mark Ritson said. For me, he's a good guy. He said, "You have to give up your right to be a consumer the moment you become a marketer." And I still believe that.

Ryan:

Good point.

Jing:

And there's a big, big challenge that we have to make sure of, and it's our job as Insights people to make sure that we're not too narrow on a category standpoint. Bourbon competes with the scotch of the world, the cognacs and tequila, the color of the spirit doesn't really matter. So, it's the occasion and the need and the context by which we compete again. So, it is important whether we operate out there, we operate in other categories, the humans and cultural understanding piece is as vital as breathing.

Ryan:

By the way, for those of you folks listening who are suppliers, it's no different. The amount of times Jing I meet startups in our space that quote to me $190 billion addressable market. I laugh and I go, "What does your toy do? And how many times does that job come up?" Honestly, I actually think if you spend the time understanding that zoom out of a human's life, you are lethal as a marketer because you know their day. You can market to them better. You can talk to them better. You have empathy for the fact that your bottle of bourbon or your software platform or a very small part of their life's.

Jing:

That's right.

Ryan:

And you make it as connected to the rest of their life as possible.

Jing:

That's right. Definitely, I'm a total fan of that. I mean, one of the complexities that's happening Ryan, obviously is with privacy issues, the ability to really deep down deep, dive into of individual consumer journeys and all of that have become really challenging. So our job is to have the human stories connected the bigger pieces. In fact, one of the things that I really am obsessed about is a super power of Insights people is to really to be able to triangulate and integrate like, triangulate pieces of information they're getting from qualitative stories and at the same time, create integrated stories that actually moves the business.

So the more I think about that, that's easier said than done, but this challenge I've given my team. Like, we have to be absorbing from the fire hose, but at the same time, be really, really good at which one of these really matter. That's actually going to move the needle. And be choiceful when to say it. Often as researchers, the moment we find out something, we want to get a 300 page doc and share it out immediately. Does everything need to be known now? We don't have to. The more effective influencing tactic is to be choiceful in the messaging and then translate those immediate insights that are necessary or macro insights that are necessary for the here and now. Not necessarily have to give them everything in that you've captured.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah. The right information at the right time. So I want to come back to this, but let me ask you one more question. So, you obviously don't work in an environment today that is not in tune with humans. Maybe you have at a previous life. So, for somebody listening to us who says, "Yeah, my business just wants to speak their category." I want to talk to you a bit about this. So, I joined Zappi. I'm going to tell you exactly why. I thought people were spending too much time in validation research, too much data was getting wasted. And I thought if we were successful, brands would've more time to go to people's homes and understand them.

The truth is that hasn't happened at scale yet. We're still somewhere between data connectivity, foundational insights and inspiring agile decision making. And some businesses are farther ahead. Somebody listening to this call is sitting here going, "Ryan, Jing, this sounds great but my business just wants to talk to their likely target, no matter what we do." I spoke to a woman who left. Actually, it was funny, alcohol business. Because they were using a segmentation from the 80s. How do you recommend an Insights person tries to change that culture away from only category into human to then get to category? Do you have any tips or ways you've been able to change that mindset in a business in the past?

Jing:

That's really good question. And I think it's got to do with having shared perspective and senior sponsorship. And I'll be very clear around that. Sometimes the hardest part of Insights teams is when there's a very strong view of the role of Insights and the view of Insights tend to be very transactional and very narrow. And that's where the category specificity kicks in.

Ryan:

100%

Jing:

Right. When there's a shared view that Insights are supposed to uncover, not just the here and now, but the future and where the category is moving, you have to zoom out of the category. So, if you want to have discussions around future proofing, you want to have discussions around new ways to actually attract more consumer cohorts, you have to step out the category. So you have to have that shared perspective and ideally the leadership has that in spades because the other big lever, which makes my job easier is I've been lucky enough to be an organization where senior sponsorship and a shared understanding of what the insights power is about has pushed the envelope further for the insights organization within.

So yeah, I've been very lucky. I've been very lucky as an advisor to CEOs who share my view of what insights can do to transform businesses. And I've had their 150% support on how we should transform and how fast and how fast we should do it so that we don't break the organization as we do it, or we champion use cases with them. So the senior sponsorship helps a lot in pushing the agenda forward of a more progressive way of looking at insights, not just being very open.

Ryan:

Yeah. Amen. And the sad reality is there's still a lot of organizations that say they're customer centric but view the department as a transaction. So it's a good set of questions to ask if you're interviewing everybody out there, listening. 

All right. So you got started on this and I got excited. So for those of you who don't know this because only Jing and I know this. Jing and I had a conversation about three months ago and I left extremely motivated because we were just brainstorming about where our trade was going and I don't even know that you know this. I left feeling so inspired and validated that I wanted to have you on podcast. And this is the thing I was... The question that got me so excited. What do you believe a high functioning Insights department looks like? Now, you already said something. I'd love for you to expand more on it, about the connection of different data points to tell a story, but what are the jobs that you think a high functioning Insights department needs to be doing today to meet modern businesses goals?

Jing:

Yeah, when we talked about this, there's this piece around just sharpening the way we integrate information just because of the amount of information we have at our fingertips. The second one, I think that's going to be a critical determinant if high functioning insights function is got to do with the fact that they have very strong commercial acumen, they understand how the business works and how the business makes money and how we can actually help the business move the agenda forward financially, or with shareholders or a private company or with our owners. So I think there's a lot of... There has to be a lot of commercial acumen that Insights people possess. And often that tends to be given to strategy people who happen to have some Insights experience and I'm actually saying that Insights, people who actually move into the space of strategy are incredibly powerful because they know the grounding and the foundations. A commercial acumen is super important throughout the enterprise. Not just with the leaders the Insights function, but throughout the enterprise.

It also makes them very pragmatic on how they spend research money and which priorities will actually make the difference to the business. So you don't spend on things that will just gather dust and be put on PowerPoint and that's just there. You really actually do things in a very creative manner that actually does impact the business. I think the third part has to do with culture and humans, just obsessing about that at the highest levels, making sure that you become very, very attuned to where markets, the society is going, the grand similarities of markets, the differences in markets, whether or not it's anchored to your category. I think that obsession is just super important. 

The two things on the how to me are just because of the presence of technology, just really, really pushing the boundaries around agility and rigor. How do you get results and insights to your leadership and decision makers in a very agile manner but still not forgoing rigor because now we can do a big piece of work and I can do a 24 hour turnaround enough to make a decision and an M&A.

We've done that and it can't be done. Or doing a qual / quant approach because doing it sequentially is just not good enough because of timing, pressures or decision making pressures. The other part of how to me is the influencing piece. And I cannot not say enough about this area. Again, your PowerPoint is as only useful with the amount of influence you build with it. If your PowerPoint is just a report that doesn't influence any decision or it just influences minor decisions, I think it has a big, big issue in general. And I'm not just talking about the work, but also the function on how influential the function sits within an organization. Not only does it define the value that the organization can generate from the function, but also the satisfaction that the insights people tend to get from that transaction or from that engagement.

I shouldn't call it a transaction. From that engagement. So I think being influential in a good way so that all the whole enterprise makes decisions grounded on data and consumer and market understanding. The more we move the needle on that, the higher is the engagement levels I find of the Insight function. Sometimes I feel it's a thankless job because you can do so much. And then, "Oh my God, we still didn't do anything with it. We ended up with a decision that's not supported by any of the information." Now, if you couple that with commercial acumen, you know I'm going to question that because you actually understood why they made the decision in that manner, but at the same time, you're able to really craft a lot of your narrative so that it does move things commercially and not just your marketing stakeholders, but everybody buys into that idea. 

So I think there's just a couple of things that I'm looking at. But for me, I hold agility and rigor, influencing dynamics, storytelling skills, integration skills. These are high functioning to me. Last but not the least Ryan, I think, and I say this to my team. I said this in our summit in Miami, I said, "We are more intelligent together." And I think the operations of the Insights function when they're very connected and they operate as a community, they leverage each other's brain functions and you create a total brain trust, I think is where the metric happens.

Ryan:

Yeah. The woman who started Affectiva said something to me once about innovation being at the convergence of disciplines. And it really struck with me and it's obviously a plus one for why diversity's mission critical business topic, but also where you can really innovate. It's interesting because your ingredients of a high performing insights function. It strikes me. And I don't know if you did this on purpose, but if you know the human and how they show up in your category, if you know how the business makes money, what they're trying to do, and you have a bunch of different data that you can connect, the influence side of that strikes me that it gets a lot easier.

Jing:

Yes. It does.

Ryan:

Because you're not speaking from a position of my basis test or my Zappi test. It's like, "No, no. This is your world and I get what you're trying to do in it." That's really clever.

Jing:

You said it much more eloquently Ryan, but you're right. I think it sets the holy grail for which everybody individually can operate. And then together we all operate like that and then the impact is magnified. I think I still believe that we need to open doors and the organization has to open doors to be humble enough, to be courageous enough, to listen to this point of views as they navigate. Because in some organizations, granted some of them are very established in the way they've operated with Insights organizations, which could be very transactional and some are very new. And I think the openness to really look at Insights functions as real strong partners and peers is super important because I've seen, I've spoken to some peers where that's not the case.

Ryan:

No.

Jing:

You only come in at the back end. And I was surprised because even in this day and age we still have that. I assume that it's not like that but I think there are a lot of companies that can still operate in very transactional level.

Ryan:

Yeah, I agree. I'm sure it's a mix of all the things. Culture, space, not being created, vacant, vacant words and earnings reports around consumer centricity but I have to question how much of it is also the Insights team, perhaps over years of abuse just not possessing the orientation, the gravitas and your point around influence. It's a bit of a chicken and the egg that change, isn't it?

Jing:

Mm.

Ryan:

All right. So...

Jing:

It puts a lot of pressure on leadership, on the Insights leadership to really drive the agenda. The more you define the holy grail and when you help the organization align to that holy grail, then everything else is minutate and I think that's where the magic happens. Now, as I speak to a lot of heads of Insights, one of the things that we often talk about are things throughout bad obsessions for certain of their heads and leaders like, "Oh one is obsessing about big data and one who is obsessed..."

And I always say, "We will never stop them from having their own obsessions, right? Our job is to contextualize those obsessions in things that are bigger and beyond methodologies." And so how does that really impact commercial businesses and operations I think is the bigger question. So the conversation I've had with the heads of Insights is really eyeopening to me around what each one is battling with. The piece that I find very helpful though…if you are a leader or take that and run with it. That's my only advice. Just take that and run with it because you can really, really make a lot of dent and impact on the organization.

Ryan:

Yeah. Don't sit around and wait for permission. You can make a big impact if you show value, right? All right. I only have time for two more questions with you Jing which is very sad because I'm having fun. All right. Question one. I will introduce my own bias here and I'm going to caveat it so that you can respond objectively. It strikes me that Insights leaders and Insights people, so people really, really close to the P&L are grappling two big tensions. Tension one, we spent the first half of our conversation talking about the market, the business, macro orientation, which is still... I still don't think there's a shortcut for go sit at a bar and engage with your customer, go to the shop and engage with your customer. You can do some of that with videos or whatever. The rise of technology to do probably two main jobs.

Either make things go quicker in a high quality way or connect multiple data sources. And I know you've had some great success in the knowledge management space to get at meta analytics. I see attention between somebody being asked to do and inform a tactical decision and somebody having the skills to zoom out. And so it strikes me that there's a job to curate the system and a job to work in it, whether that sits in insights or marketing. I don't know that by... Is this ad good? Is this price right? Or whatever those things are. How do you reconcile the tension of busy bee thinking and macro orientation? That's a long way to get at my question?

Jing:

I think there's a time and space for everything, Ryan. Not everything needs to be short-term decision making. You need to provide some really strong breathing room on where you get your mega thought leadership out and integrate it within your learning plans. I believe that your shorter term decisions are going to be better done when they are well informed with macro perspectives.

Ryan:

Agree. Completely agree.

Jing:

So, you might not need to validate every single decision point because you have a bigger understanding of how consumers navigate brands, decisions, categories, and you have a very good understanding of how this person before this person became a consumer, what matters to him or her in general, in life. So I think that there's a time and space for everything. You need to provide that piece of meta learning and macro understanding in order for you to be able to really focus on the shorter term decisions. And often I always say that the biggest job of Insights people is to really educate the gut and the gut understanding doesn't just come from the micro decisions. They come from the macro decisions and I won't always be there. Our Insights team are not big enough to be able to be there in every single decision made. What our biggest job is to democratize information.

So we have educated guts and the educated guts are able to make decisions, shorter term wants or midterm wants without having to test and test and validate everything. So how do you say this? I've never been binary, Ryan. I've always been more integrated and I feel like there's this time and space for everything. And if we do take a step back, I think we're better off for it. If we do take a step back because that's the piece that I need my team to get to understand. You know how people navigate the drinks or the alcohol, but how does alcohol fit in their lives in general?

If we answer those dynamics really well, we can get better decisions around... That even telling our marketers, that's not a question you need to ask. The pricing decision doesn't matter because of X, Y, and Z. Don't even ask whether you should price higher, lower. No. Let me tell you how consumers look at the category. So we're still in that journey. I don't think we fully answered all of our foundational work, but I'm excited because we are allocating budgets for those types of things. So we stay at the high level without forgoing very important decisions if we do need to validate.

Ryan:

Yeah. And look, I think what you say really resonates Jing, because that level of understanding and disseminated information is it enables a shit ton of agility Pardon my French. Because you're scaling understanding. And so it really motivates me because it's like, "Well, why would I...?" If I'm going to go learn something t's to learn, it's to make something better versus to stamp it. And that really resonates. 

I think part of the tension I see is there's a job to do to set up these data systems. There's a job to do to answer questions on a Tuesday and there's a job to do to really get at the foundation. And obviously in small Insights departments that tends to be the same person and medium to bigger size. I don't necessarily know that they're that intentional about how they set those things up.

Jing:

Yeah.

Ryan:

And so I hear a lot of, "We need to elevate," but oftentimes then I'm like, "Who's going to do the work on a Tuesday? Who?" And that there's a tension inherent in that. And so it's part of the reason why I ask you the question.

Jing:

It's a big ask. And which is why some Insight leaders have been comparing what is the best way to address that? Because some of the macro pieces require very different skill versus the ones on a tactical level. So, do we have an operationalized system, for example, for getting you those tactical answers or do we do things differently? 

So that's where indeed technology and I can do this with my eyes closed or I can even do it while I'm sleeping because the technology does that for me. So there needs to be some bit of wiggle room where I do challenge Insight people to do is where's your brain cells and energies navigating the words because if 90% of those brain cells in navigation is sitting on the validation, that's easy. You can do that. Anybody can do that. And your job is to really, really frame those decisions in the right cultural context, the right human context, the right. And that's how you do it. It's easier said than done. But I question all the time where the energies of the team are coming.

Ryan:

I love that... It's a great leadership trade on your part, because it's where's the pull, right? If someone's natural energy is in a space, either it works out in your team or not, but they're going to do a much better job for something they're intrinsically excited about than a "Do this because I need you to." Kudos to the team. All right. I'm going to ask you one more question and we don't really have time for it so you can answer quickly if you want. I know we only have two minutes. 

All right. So you have educated us a lot on how to set up a high functioning Insights team. Tell me the two or three things you see your business counterparts, your stakeholders, want more of and want less of. Maybe two points on each.

Jing:

They want more of the impact scale, which means that everybody in every category operating at the same highest levels, both centrally, regionally, locally. So they want more of that. Two, they want us to really view the future faster than anybody else. Being able to look at where it's going and where do we need to take it forward? So I think there's that big ask. I think on the what they want less of, they're not really into how you get there. They're really more in terms of the impact that that can make. They're not really into like, "Oh, Jing that's an interesting..." They don't want our teams to talk about how to get there. Whether that's people, investment or methodological investment. No, let's just get you the answers as fast as possible. And they don't want a very heavy organization.

They want a right size organization that actually will drive the agenda forward. And I firmly believe that. I think the more doing right by my team means making sure it's the right size. Everybody's firing well on all cylinders. We're impacting on the biggest issues and no energy is wasted on things that don't really make a difference. It doesn't really matter. Because it creates a vicious cycle. They do stuff that's not motivating. They do stuff that doesn't impact the business. That's not going to keep them enjoying the job. So I have a big task of making sure everybody is working on the right things and expanding energy on the right things.

Ryan:

I love it. Jing, thank you. This was really fun. 

Jing:

I hope it was helpful. Ryan. I hope it was helpful.

Ryan:

It was very helpful. Very helpful. Everybody's going to be better off for listening to this. Thank you so much.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Takeaways

Ryan Barry: 

Patricia, what'd you think?

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Oh man, I had such a hard time distilling and finding the top three or four. There were so much gold in this one.

Ryan:

I couldn't agree. More lot of nuggets of gold, lot of tactical ...

Patricia:

Oh, yes. So much.

Ryan:

... pragmatic things people can do in this conversation.

Patricia:

Yep. Monday morning shit.

Ryan:

Monday morning shit. Which is actually the purpose of this podcast.

Patricia:

Exactly.

Ryan:

Model concept. We're delivering on our vision.

Patricia:

Whoa. So what I did for today is I try to think of all the things she said and distill them even more as if I was just cooking and baking and the smoke was rising, to get it into three to four nuggets. I was not able to get three because there was too much gold in there. So I've got four for us today. I think four's our number today. Isn't it Ryan, right?

Ryan:

Yes.

Patricia:

So I've got four Monday morning shits for you guys. The first one, recommendations that the insights team can take to senior management to help the company grow during a recession, which is pretty novel and we're all over preparing. So it's all about in summary if we have only one sentence, focus on the humans. There's a novel concept. Focus on the humans, see how they navigate the crisis and then see how you're going to put them there.

The first one is, of course, don't pull back. You're famous for saying this as well. She totally agrees with you. Don't stop investing, continue investing. So even during the crisis, during tough times, consumers have a familiarity with your brand. That's when the relationships are really fostered. Number two, take advantage of impulse occasions that match your category and their life so that you're there when they need you or want you. And it's all about, don't worry about the income. It's not about income as much. It's about disposable money. It's about cash ...

Ryan:

Good point.

Patricia:

... they have and want, those two things, to spend. So it's spending ability and spending desire. So if you work on being there when they need you, then I bet you some of that money that they have disposable, they're going to want to give it to you so that they can have a moment that's better together.

So that's the first one I thought that was golden. And if the insights team takes us to senior management, that's even better. Right?

Ryan:

Absolutely.

Patricia:

Ready for number two?

Ryan:

I'm ready.

Patricia:

Number two. What do stakeholders want more and less from their insights partners? That was a great question you asked Jing, and she knew Bing right away. They want more impact at scale. Of course they want more, they're consumers at the end of the day, right? Consumers want more, they don't want to settle for this benefit or that benefit. Stakeholders are not going to be different. They want everybody and every category up in their company operating at the same higher levels globally, regionally, centrally, locally, every that you can think of. They don't want a strong region and a less strong region. They want everybody going at the same time. Right? Why? Because number two, they want all of that to happen so that we can have a vision into the future faster so that we can know where the market's going and what we need to do to take it forward. 

That's what they want more of, which makes perfect sense. If it was my business, that's what I'd want more of. I need more hours in the day, but that again, I digress. What do they want less? They want less of the how-to. They trust the insights partners. They don't care about the methodology as much. They care about the methodology, they care that you worry about the resources, the timing, they just want to know what the impact is.

So don't waste their time. It's a blurb. And just is it quant or qual or is it today or tomorrow, but they don't want to know about that. I think Jing said that it's really interesting that their answer to her is, "That's really interesting Jing, but tell us more about this." They don't want a heavy insights organization. They just want the right size. They want the right amount of people to have the highest agenda because why? They don't want energy waste on things that don't make a difference. Energy waste means people, means resources, means time. Those are the things they want more and less. A brilliant response from Jing. Great question.

Ryan:

I agree with all of them.

Patricia:

Great answer. Oh yeah, absolutely. Me too. Right. So number three, this one was cool. How do you foster an environment of curiosity? She is just such a four year old at heart.

She has never, ever outgrown the four year old, the why in life, the two year old, four year old, she's never outgrown that and she's never going to. But how do you foster that in your team? That's a great question. So she had really great ideas. Thought leadership papers. But what I liked about what she said is to have them do meta-analysis on topics that are of interest to them, the people on your insights team so they can get into it. This is a no added cost. These are just passion projects, but those just passion projects can create such a large impact and make a name for the people. And people love being recognized for something. "Oh, you're the expert on X, Y, and Z."

Ryan:

For sure.

Patricia:

That was a great one. Oh yeah. Now she introduced this word called gemba. I hope I'm saying it right. Is it gemba or I don't know, gemba, gemba?

Ryan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

I think it's Japanese.

Ryan:

It was gemba. And I love this phrase.

Patricia:

It's a Japanese term, which refers to the real place where value is created. Talk about beautiful.

Ryan:

You said it right. Yeah.

Patricia:

Oh my God. So she says, make your team, the insights team, the engineers of gemba. Oh my God. That's poetic, right? Because they're the enablers at the end of the day to have to enable the organization to have very close contact with the consumers in the market around the world, around their world. If you make the title much more interesting, I'm learning a lot about the Indian cultures and the emperors of the time. And they gave people titles that were the son of life and the life of the world. If you give somebody a title, they grow into it and out so that expands. And that's a beautiful title. Engineers of gemba. I want that title. Can I have that title?

Ryan:

You can have it. Yeah.

Patricia:

Thank you.

Ryan:

Can we change her title when it's no longer co-host she's the engineer of gemba? Official.

Patricia:

Official, right? Although I did really like my title of customer transformation when I was at Zappi formally.

Ryan:

Yeah. That's a cool one.

Patricia:

It's not exactly informally now. Anyway, many titles, many hats. Fourth one, not the last but fourth one. And I'm Catholic born and raised, so this one's going to be a little bit iffy for me to say this, but the insights Holy Grail.

Ryan:

Ooh.

Patricia:

Very ooh. This one's a great one because it's a formula, and you know how I love my math. Start with knowing the human and how they show in your category. Plus knowing the business and how it makes money. Plus knowing how to integrate multiple data sources. Plus knowing how to create and tell the stories that influence others. Plus knowing how to converge disciplines that work as a team equals magnified business impact. Boom.

Ryan:

Hey, everybody listening, that's not hard to pull off or anything. Right? You got this.

Patricia:

Easy peasy. Yeah. No problem. No problem.

Ryan:

Hey leaders, enable your teams to do those things. Hey insights People, if your leaders aren't enabling you to do it, find a new job. Feel me?

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Go work somewhere that will.

Patricia:

Oh yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah. People want to lay the egg, leaders, you just gotta let them. And people, your leaders are telling you to do it then it's on you if you don't. That's all.

Patricia:

Some companies really at this age, we're in 2022. We've been at this for a while. Oh my frigging God. Why don't they want ... I was reading today about companies wanting to go full time in the office again, just because that's the way they're used to doing it. That's a different tangent. We're not going to go there, but what is this about wanting to go back to the future? How was the movie? It was great a long time ago. Moving on, moving on. Right?

Ryan:

Absolutely. Moving on. I wrote a LinkedIn post a couple of weeks ago about what I think the words accountability and psychological safety mean. It was a polarizing post because a lot of people say that you can say what you want to say, that say accountability doesn't mean that you can't fail. And a lot of people have been burnt by that. And haven't been environments where that's okay. So somebody who I respect said to me, "Maybe it's a little early to call it dead when so many other people have not experienced that yet." Anyways, we're going to change that.

Patricia:

We're going to change it. We are. What we were talking about earlier that it's a sensitive point is I've been in environments, both the types of environments that completely enable the insights holy grail and it's just an explosion of amazingness, and I've been in situations and environments where they actually beat you into the ground if you open your mouth in a language or a tone that's not. Interestingly, it was the same company that did those things, but it's just a no brainer that when things all work and it explodes into all goodness, why the frig wouldn't you let it. If the people don't have the skills, give them the skills, get them the skills. Now, if the insights team doesn't want to get the skills or doesn't have the competencies or the energy, we'll understand that. Moving on, moving on also. But if they want to and they can let them.

Ryan:

Yeah, that's right.

Patricia:

Go.

Ryan:

I think it's beautiful. Let them, for those watching on YouTube, the great Jill Barry just walked into the office. I was trying to make her stay here to say hi to everybody, but she ran out of patience with me. So she's kept it moving. But I think she really needs to say hi to all of our wonderful listeners. Jill Barry, real brains behind the Barry family operation.

Patricia:

I can attest to that. She is your enabler Mahani.

Ryan:

She's my enabler. That's right. She gives me the space to fail, but also hold me accountable. That's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing here in this household. So great interview. Can I tell you something? Really excited about our next interview.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Our next interview is with a woman who I've known for a really long time. I've always admired her. She used to be a customer of mine. When I first got into this game, she was one of my first customers. And I learned about what business partnership means by how gracious she was in good times and bad, and how much context she shared with me when I was just trying to help her do her job. And I'm really grateful for her. 

Our next guest is Bianca Pryor. She's a VP of insights at BET. She's a really, really, really strong advocate for DE&I in the consumer insight space. And what we're going to talk to her about is as a woman who's extremely trained and experienced in consumer insights, dealing with on the vendor side for many, many years, she was a key leader in BrainJuicer's rise. I know that they're called System 1, but come on they're BrainJuicer.

Patricia:

BrainJuicers.

Ryan:

They're still BrainJuicer to me and they never will change, but she was a key executive at BrainJuicer as they rose, which is obviously a very CPG retail QSR focused business, and she's moved into entertainment. And so she's had this really interesting experience, fascinated to learn from about taking the research skills and really figuring out at scale how to integrate that into a modern creation process. And so it's going to be a really fun interview. There'll be a really good vibe because Bianca is my bud and I'm very much looking forward to it. So until next time my friends, keep it real.

Patricia:

Until next time.

Ryan:

Be nice to each other. And ladies, it was great to see you both have a good day.

Patricia:

Bye guys.

Ryan:

Bye everybody.